ce650

Wow you are getting popcorn for $4.75 a bag??? Most signatures and atlantic's are getting well over 5bucks now!!! And those hilton's and marriott propertys are really going downhill. And if I have to do one more 3 night in SDL or SAN I'm going to file a greivence!!!

SkyHigh

We can only hope. I don't want the industry to be the way it is. I've got the dreamers disease, but I am also not crazy.

SKyhigh

SkyHigh

"You are absolutely right, in the seniority world where you live and die by the date of hire. Why would I be willing to do the job for less than other guy? You still have not answered my questions I've asked you several times so far. Why do US airline pilots undercut each other? Do you think it has anything to do with the rat race for a date of hire at a career carrier or even your regional, as that date of hire is literally all that matters in the airline career? What would be the incentive to undercut others if your date of hire was no longer a factor in you upgrading or getting better pay, etc.?"

The incentive to undercut is that if you come cheaper then the next guy then your dreams come true while the other guy hits the street. Airlines and pilots undercut each other because they are in competition. The seniority system is an unfair prison but also is helping to keeping wages from entering a complete free fall.

If you are not able to cut your costs under the next guy eventually your pilot way of life will go away. I am example of someone who can not accept the low staring wages of the airlines anymore. I have a wife and children to think about so I have been forced out. Aviation is not a place where you can build value into your career over time. It is a war of attrition. How much are you willing to give? What will you sacrifice in order to stay in the saddle?

"Pilots are paid by what they will do not for what they can do". Famous pilot quote.

Skyhigh

Mesabah

A lot of the reason management sucks so bad in this industry is because they are union busters. They hire these people who have no experience running an airline, which is an extremely difficult and complex task, all for the sole purpose of making pilots lives miserable.

SkyHigh

Flying is a war of attrition. If management can make the pilots miserable enough eventually they will become so war torn that they give in to contract negotiations under the assumed believe that things will get better the day after signing.

The realty is that management has written into the new contract more ruthless means of torture.

Skyhigh

Mesabah

Examples of union busting CEO's
Doug Steenland
Gerard Arpey
Frank Lorenzo
Doug Parker
Larry Kellner
Jonathan Ornstein
etc

Examples of Non-union busting CEO's
Herb Kelleher
Warren Buffett
Fred Smith
Scott Davis
Gary Kelly
etc

See any pattern here SH?

SkyHigh

Are you trying to say that non-union busting strategy's are better? I don't wish to bust unions. My position is that if pilots were really worth something in the first place they would not need a union to blackmail companies into better wages. The auto manufacturers have been brought to their knees in part by overpaid workers. Airlines are the same way.

Non-union companies have the long term advantage. Eventually they will prevail and pilot wages will be set by the free market. A pilots true un-blackmailed value to the industry is the real enemy. We love our jobs and most would show up for free to do it. We are our own worst enemy by choosing as a profession something that others do as a hobby.

Skyhigh

ERJ135

Another option to consider would be if something good came of these June hearings on Colgan. Say government stepping in and saying min wage has to be 50k, or require an ATP/ATP written as a min for min hiring requirments. Min Wage is unlikely but, one can only hope. ATP is probably more realistic. In turn that may lift wages.

ExperimentalAB

The government will do what they do best...nothing. Wait...the other thing they do best is make our lives just a bit more difficult whenever possible. Instead of fixing the problem (ATP/ATP), they'll throw a band-aid on it, requiring addt'l stall training and checking for 121 operators

robthree

Sky, there is no free market for pilot jobs.

Yes there are forces of supply and demand. Puppy mills and age 65 legislation have increased the supply of pilots. The cratering economy has decreased the demand for pilots.

But pilots DO NOT offer their labor to an open market. Regulations(holding out, air carrier certification), and extensive barriers to entry(capital) in the market mean that pilots can only offer their services to a very small group of potential employers - well under 100 US "Airlines" of all stripes are listed here on APC, and probably 25 of those employ 75% of all professional pilots.
So in terms of being the purchaser of labor, airlines operate as an Oligopoly, and in fact given the homogeneous nature of pilots - after training we are the legal equivalent of one another - its no stretch to see Airlines operating as a purchasing cartel.

Historically Unions have been a counter-force against the cartel's tendency towards collusion in fixing wages. With the erosion of union strength from deregulation onwards, we have seen them become less and less effective. Unions may be a dike holding back the sea of low wages, but they are no more an artificial force than the oligopoly of employers 'artificially' lowering wages below their 'natural' level.