bryris

I edited my post, read the rest of it.

Colnago

It literally brought chills down my spine, no doubt.

CaptainTeezy

Lack of experience doesnt lead to this result everytime, but when is the last time you saw a B777 stall on final because the crew wasnt paying attention??? And those guys fly transatlantic, I am pretty sure they get tired too.

Lack of experience is just another knock on Death's door. And in a "VAST majority" of the time the autopilot is engaged, wx is not an issue, the airplane is at systems 100%, and the PIC usually has some good amount of PIC time pre 121 career, even if it's instructing. Just because it doesnt lead to the result everytime doesnt mean that 121 mins dont need to be raised. Force people to learn how to be PIC in C172's before the Q400's.

bryris

I've done and still do part 91 PIC stuff and I agree with you. My point was that this may not be the cause of the problem. Accidents will always happen in rare instances due to a plethora of reasons. Marvin obviously knew how to recover from a stall - you don't get to his position without knowing AND demonstrating it. The fact that he didn't do what he knew (nerves and fear clouded his judgments in the heat of battle - a human reaction that is more an individual characteristic than one that can be overcome with mere experience) how to do is going to be a source of debate for years to come.

Any accident can be taken to this level. Recently there was a world class aerobatic champion that crashed his MX2 and took a kid down with him. He'd been flying crazy maneuvers for airshows, etc for years. But on this one day, clear blue and million, he turned it into a lawn dart. One can always determine the aerodynamic cause and state that if so so were done, the problem could have been prevented. True. But the fact is, IT WASN'T DONE. Is the reason in this aerobatic example, lack of experience (maybe) or more likely a clouding of reason ability that more than likely falls under the heading a human factors study than a lack of basic airmanship.

The Juice

Meeting the FAA mins of 1500TT, Colgan's low upgrade mins (1700 at the lowest) does not mean you are ready for anything.

Also, what kind of wonderland do you live in that would cause you to think that only qualified pilots make it through training? So anyone who makes it through upgrade training is ready to be PIC of an aircraft? Marvin only had 150 hours PIC TOTAL when he was upgraded to left seat on the Saab, does that make him ready?

I never said that he only became captain for the money and had little thought about his responsibilities. I know that Marvin believed that everything he did was for the safety of himself and his passengers. Marvin was motivated by the money though, as many of us are. Read the CVR and you will hear him talk about it. Again, you are a third party person who has not idea who Marvin was. I have many conversations with him and I know he had pressures to make money and work as much as he can.

Marvin was a great person and I will miss him. Marvin was set up to fail by a company who needed pilots at any cost. Marvin was first turned down for the Q transition because of his low time, did you know that? A few weeks later they said "ok," because they were having trouble filling the seat.

I believe this crash would have never happened if the pay was higher on the Q's. Colgan would have had more experienced CA's filling the Q seats and not refusing it because of the low pay. Marvin would have sat in IAH building more PIC time and becoming more experienced.

CaptainTeezy

I cant believe I am actually going to say this...but when a doctor messes up he only kills one person...when a dash 8 stalls short of final it screws up the universe for possibly 70 people and those on the ground. Doctors also litterally SAVE lives every day. Pilots are just asked not to hurt the payload. So doctors have a tougher job. You can never ensure 100% but if everyone had an ATP before going 121 I bet you would see a lot less accidents.

Pilots are not equal to doctors. Let me just get that out there.

bryris

I am all for higher minimums. I think it should be substantially higher than even 1,500. I'm talking even for an entry level FO.

But I am just trying to step back three feet here and judge the situation. Not every problem in aviation boils down to time in a logbook. But, indeed, many do.

shfo

It wasn't a 777 but do you remember the Turkish airlines crash?
At least nine killed as Turkish Airlines plane crashes near Amsterdam | World news | guardian.co.uk

BobBinkie

I think it's time to require a defined 2 year degree program for the ATP plus raising the minimums to 2500 or 3000 hours total. PIC should be around 1000 hours. This career field is an apprenticeship. There is far more to learn than you will pick up in a classroom or a cockpit for a year or two. We need to build in the time to allow for some minimum amount of experience to be built up.

Too many airlines act as if the FAA standards are the gold standard. Then again many don't help bridge the gap on knowledge by truly training folks. My own airline has reduced the classroom and sim time to the point that almost any questions asked mean staying late or making it up the next day if you have a discussion that really explains things. But with the push to reduce training to home study, I can't imagine that the ATA and RAA will do anything but oppose such a change.

Mesabah

Another factor that needs to be looked at is the way information is presented to pilots. The dangerously decreasing airspeed went unnoticed by both pilots. It's literally "SURPRISE stick shaker". I think neither pilot knew that the plane was in a stall situation, certainly not the captain. This lack off feedback from the airplane until the last second is a huge systems flaw. Something as simple as the airspeed tape blinking if the airspeed falls below a set ref speed probably would have prevented this accident.