Worth the Hardwork or not?
07-18-2006, 04:15 PM
#81
Just Plane Stupid
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Captain
Posts: 458
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
I think you missed something very important. Often people who are not in the industry think I am complaining about not making 300K. The reality is that pilot wages are so low that it is unlikely that you will ever earn back the cost of your training and education.
We are not debating weather you will drive a Porsche or Lexus but rather if you will be able to financially survive at all. It most likely will take you five to ten years to reach a point where you can earn as much as a teacher or mailman, and this is after you blow perhaps 120 to 180K on education and training. It goes much deeper than one being a good "fit" or not. Unless of course if you don't mind food stamps and refrigerator boxes.
SkyHigh
We are not debating weather you will drive a Porsche or Lexus but rather if you will be able to financially survive at all. It most likely will take you five to ten years to reach a point where you can earn as much as a teacher or mailman, and this is after you blow perhaps 120 to 180K on education and training. It goes much deeper than one being a good "fit" or not. Unless of course if you don't mind food stamps and refrigerator boxes.
SkyHigh
07-18-2006, 05:21 PM
#82
Gets EVERY weekend off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: SIC
Posts: 1,367
A good buddy of mine took loans out for all his education and flight training, and he spent a ton of flight training, renting our baron and flying from the midwest to the east coast, arizona, etc...most of this time he was able to split with other student,s but still, it's not cheap. When he was all said and done, he was a CFI-II-MEI and high on our university's senority list but had spent upwards of 90k...he also had a approx. 1500 hrs of flt time, 250 hrs multi engine time, and at a young 22 yrs of age, was off to the regionals to start paying off his loans...
not much fun...on the contrary, my parents had a college fund for me which paid for all of my actual education, and my flight training was paid out of pocket. All in all, they spent approximately 35k on my flight training, and roughly the same on my education, 70k is expensive, but barely noticable compared to the high end of 180k...
not much fun...on the contrary, my parents had a college fund for me which paid for all of my actual education, and my flight training was paid out of pocket. All in all, they spent approximately 35k on my flight training, and roughly the same on my education, 70k is expensive, but barely noticable compared to the high end of 180k...
07-18-2006, 05:24 PM
#83
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
You are the exception
Originally Posted by HeavyDriver
I think you need to tweek this statement a bit Skyhigh...You can do it for less then 120k or 180k...come on...you know that buddy...And you need to point out that the low pay is at the Regional level...Not the entire aviation community...There are good corporate gigs out there as Airline jobs...There are also really bad jobs too...But that's everywhere...I DO have a very GOOD income flying an airplane...And HAVE made more money in 10 years flying that airplane then most people will make in their 40 years of working for the man...I've had plenty of time OFF to run a Business and a Corporation that has made more money in a year then I've made in the 10 flying the big jet...But...Some people will not be lucky in business either...And running a Business that has large obligations is much harder on the body then all those hours crossing the pond...I've had 20 hour days for weeks at times...So what is worse?....Each person is different...And if it's Money you after...The tax man and the Bank are always on your a$$ for their share...Just like Airline Management after Pilots compensation packages.
Those to whom I am addressing are the ones who are contemplating signing up for a keybank loan and an expensive wasted education.
It is possible but not probable.
SkyHigh
07-18-2006, 05:26 PM
#84
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Expense
Originally Posted by flynavyj
A good buddy of mine took loans out for all his education and flight training, and he spent a ton of flight training, renting our baron and flying from the midwest to the east coast, arizona, etc...most of this time he was able to split with other student,s but still, it's not cheap. When he was all said and done, he was a CFI-II-MEI and high on our university's senority list but had spent upwards of 90k...he also had a approx. 1500 hrs of flt time, 250 hrs multi engine time, and at a young 22 yrs of age, was off to the regionals to start paying off his loans...
not much fun...on the contrary, my parents had a college fund for me which paid for all of my actual education, and my flight training was paid out of pocket. All in all, they spent approximately 35k on my flight training, and roughly the same on my education, 70k is expensive, but barely noticable compared to the high end of 180k...
not much fun...on the contrary, my parents had a college fund for me which paid for all of my actual education, and my flight training was paid out of pocket. All in all, they spent approximately 35k on my flight training, and roughly the same on my education, 70k is expensive, but barely noticable compared to the high end of 180k...
SkyHigh
07-18-2006, 05:58 PM
#85
Gets EVERY weekend off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: SIC
Posts: 1,367
skyhigh,
you'll have to inform me on the lost wages, might be ignorant on the subject. As far as room and board goes when included with yearly tuition costs the total came to just under 40k, aviation flight costs in a per/credit hour rate are already figured into the costs of the tuition, however, flight fees (airplane and instructor rentals are not). These fees worked out to approximately another 40k for flight training, that's from private, through CFI. so that would put us at 80k, so, i just wanna figure out where you get the other 40-100k?
also, my "real" 4 year degree is a bachelors in aviation technology from central missouri state university, it's nothing fancy, but pretty affordable, with decent training.
Another thing, guess i just don't see it as "blowing" the 100k. Seems like the price that had to be paid for what i wanted, same as most others have done. If i had wanted to be a garbage man, i would have, i'm sure teachers say the same thing, especially when in order to get better wages for themselves, they have to justify going "back" to school to get graduate degrees, and just about all of them would have made more as a garbage collector....it's all pretty relative.
you'll have to inform me on the lost wages, might be ignorant on the subject. As far as room and board goes when included with yearly tuition costs the total came to just under 40k, aviation flight costs in a per/credit hour rate are already figured into the costs of the tuition, however, flight fees (airplane and instructor rentals are not). These fees worked out to approximately another 40k for flight training, that's from private, through CFI. so that would put us at 80k, so, i just wanna figure out where you get the other 40-100k?
also, my "real" 4 year degree is a bachelors in aviation technology from central missouri state university, it's nothing fancy, but pretty affordable, with decent training.
Another thing, guess i just don't see it as "blowing" the 100k. Seems like the price that had to be paid for what i wanted, same as most others have done. If i had wanted to be a garbage man, i would have, i'm sure teachers say the same thing, especially when in order to get better wages for themselves, they have to justify going "back" to school to get graduate degrees, and just about all of them would have made more as a garbage collector....it's all pretty relative.
07-18-2006, 06:20 PM
#86
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Well
Originally Posted by flynavyj
skyhigh,
you'll have to inform me on the lost wages, might be ignorant on the subject. As far as room and board goes when included with yearly tuition costs the total came to just under 40k, aviation flight costs in a per/credit hour rate are already figured into the costs of the tuition, however, flight fees (airplane and instructor rentals are not). These fees worked out to approximately another 40k for flight training, that's from private, through CFI. so that would put us at 80k, so, i just wanna figure out where you get the other 40-100k?
also, my "real" 4 year degree is a bachelors in aviation technology from central missouri state university, it's nothing fancy, but pretty affordable, with decent training.
Another thing, guess i just don't see it as "blowing" the 100k. Seems like the price that had to be paid for what i wanted, same as most others have done. If i had wanted to be a garbage man, i would have, i'm sure teachers say the same thing, especially when in order to get better wages for themselves, they have to justify going "back" to school to get graduate degrees, and just about all of them would have made more as a garbage collector....it's all pretty relative.
you'll have to inform me on the lost wages, might be ignorant on the subject. As far as room and board goes when included with yearly tuition costs the total came to just under 40k, aviation flight costs in a per/credit hour rate are already figured into the costs of the tuition, however, flight fees (airplane and instructor rentals are not). These fees worked out to approximately another 40k for flight training, that's from private, through CFI. so that would put us at 80k, so, i just wanna figure out where you get the other 40-100k?
also, my "real" 4 year degree is a bachelors in aviation technology from central missouri state university, it's nothing fancy, but pretty affordable, with decent training.
Another thing, guess i just don't see it as "blowing" the 100k. Seems like the price that had to be paid for what i wanted, same as most others have done. If i had wanted to be a garbage man, i would have, i'm sure teachers say the same thing, especially when in order to get better wages for themselves, they have to justify going "back" to school to get graduate degrees, and just about all of them would have made more as a garbage collector....it's all pretty relative.
Good for you. I am glad you are satisfied with your choices. All the best.
SkyHigh
07-18-2006, 07:05 PM
#87
Just Plane Stupid
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Captain
Posts: 458
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
You are the bizzare execption. You have not had the added expenses and complications of family life and were lucky enough to have found jobs that would hire you without a college degree. Most will not be able to duplicate your bizare circumstances. Even in your case luck has had a role.
Those to whom I am addressing are the ones who are contemplating signing up for a keybank loan and an expensive wasted education.
It is possible but not probable.
SkyHigh
Those to whom I am addressing are the ones who are contemplating signing up for a keybank loan and an expensive wasted education.
It is possible but not probable.
SkyHigh
07-18-2006, 08:44 PM
#88
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Right on
Originally Posted by HeavyDriver
LOL...No I haven't had the added expense of a family life...True...But I do have and did have the added expense of a payroll that I am obligated to provide that does support dozens of families...So I guess that's my financial obligation...I hope you do have that success too Skyhigh...Both for your financial freedom, but also it will open your eyes on how hard my and any successful persons life really is regardless of profession...If money is handed to you...That's luck...Winning a lottery, ect...And do you think I was hired at an Airline as Widebody Captain luck?...not at all...I had to compete against all those other experienced guys/gals out there with college degrees and 1000's of hours of experience...How did I pull that one off? Oh, luck...lol...The luck is that my company is doing well while other companies suffer...That is not luck either...That's the skill of my Airlines Officers business decisions....But I do agree on you trying to get the word out to the future professional pilots not to get their a$$'s in a sling with loans for a job at the regional level...But it can be done cheaper then what I've seen on this forum (for those who want this path)...Just think out of the box...Cheers
SkyHigh
07-19-2006, 05:28 AM
#89
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,242
But I do agree on you trying to get the word out to the future professional pilots not to get their a$$'s in a sling with loans for a job at the regional level...
That IMHO is what gets a lot of these young kids into trouble...Massive loans that need to be paid off at 18K a year salary...
'no regrets'
-LAFF
That IMHO is what gets a lot of these young kids into trouble...Massive loans that need to be paid off at 18K a year salary...
'no regrets'
-LAFF
07-22-2006, 10:25 AM
#90
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 184
While some jobs will pay better, many of those jobs will have you sitting at your keyboard for at least eight hours per day, going nowhere. Trying not to fall asleep after lunch is your excitement for the day. One cream or two in your coffee is a big decision. And when it comes down to it, your "view" consists of the same people, the same desk, etc. etc.
Most career fields, and by most, I mean the majority of the career fields people go into, will not pay, topped off, much more than in the $60,000 to $80,000 per year range. Are there people, and jobs that make more than that? Of course, but that is not anywhere near the majority.
I know some of you will bring up this friend of a friend who left college and got a starting salary of $70,000 per year. I know pilots who got jobs with starting salaries in that range; they went corporate, or some other route than the airlines, either by knowing someone, or being in the right place at the right time. It happens, even to pilots. But, for the majority of people, pilots or not, you have to start somewhere.
My sister has a business degree and her first job was making $26,000 per year. I have a friend who has a degree in computer information systems, he is currently making $10 per hour. I have another friend/co-worker who graduated with a degree in marketing. It took him nearly 6 months to even find a job. He only recently got one, a few weeks ago, and he isn't making but about $30,000, if that. One job he applied for, which involved marketing for a state golf association was only going to pay him $17,000 per year. And each of these people graduated with a GPA above a 3.0.
Fact is, other than first year FO pay, pilots make as much or more than what others make in other career fields. The difference is you don't have to sit behind a desk, and computer 8 hours a day entering data, or writing up reports.
The economy is having problems, the airlines as a result are suffering. Yes things could be better, but it looks like things are improving. We have Continental hiring, American making a 2Q profit, United recalling, Delta announcing that they are recalling some this summer, USAirways recalling, and NorthWest has said recalls are possiblen next year. Things will get better.
ALSO... Trust me when I say that other industries are suffering just as much. A lot of people have had pay cut, pensions cuts, etc. I know many people who have had to deal with that, who read stuff in these message boards, and wonder why pilots think they are alone.
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