Entitlement
12-04-2009 | 07:15 AM
#51
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 714
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From: Hotel
As someone who 'beat the system" or "beat the odds", I have to question why the push for a degree. Since 90 something percent have degrees, how would requiring a degree help the industry? It would seem to me that the industry has done a fine job of weeding people like me out. I find that the pilots that have the biggest sense of entitlement come from the military and haven't found a job at a major yet.
My thoughts on what has "killed the industry"
1. B scale
2. Scope
3. Airlines using bankruptcy to gut union contracts
4. Whipsawing regionals
5. The "commoditization" of air travel
My thoughts on what has "killed the industry"
1. B scale
2. Scope
3. Airlines using bankruptcy to gut union contracts
4. Whipsawing regionals
5. The "commoditization" of air travel
12-04-2009 | 07:18 AM
#52
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,534
Likes: 1
From: A320 CA
As someone who 'beat the system" or "beat the odds", I have to question why the push for a degree. Since 90 something percent have degrees, how would requiring a degree help the industry? It would seem to me that the industry has done a fine job of weeding people like me out.
Agree 100%
12-04-2009 | 07:27 AM
#53
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2005
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Air travel today is bought and sold much like a commodity. Do you buy a brand of sugar or salt, or do you buy the cheapest bag at the store. There is no real difference between the carriers. It has come down to who is the lowest cost provider. Labor is a big cost and therefore wages will always be under pressure.
12-04-2009 | 07:41 AM
#54
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Joined: Dec 2005
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Blastoff,
I'm not trying to be cute and have no way of knowing where you sit on the great totem pole of aviation.
My observation has formed from many years in the industry. I'll share a quick story. All names removed. I was a captain at a commuter airline. My co-pilot was a Flight Safety pay per view, ex F-18 pilot. All day, all he say was how the guys who had left his squadron 6 months earlier had gone to the majors and he had to sit in the right seat with me. I asked why he would spend the money to be my co-pilot making $800 a month when he could have waited for the next round of airline hiring and go ahead of me. It was clearly a case of loss of SA.
The question of why the push back is that my having a degree or not has nothing to do with the state of the major airlines. There are many jobs out there that require an ATP. Should we push for something that will have little or no effect on the airlines but could lock those out seeking all of the other fine jobs in aviation. Clearly, a few of us were able to demonstrate our ability to fly a plane. Let the employer choose if they want a degree or not.
I'm not trying to be cute and have no way of knowing where you sit on the great totem pole of aviation.
My observation has formed from many years in the industry. I'll share a quick story. All names removed. I was a captain at a commuter airline. My co-pilot was a Flight Safety pay per view, ex F-18 pilot. All day, all he say was how the guys who had left his squadron 6 months earlier had gone to the majors and he had to sit in the right seat with me. I asked why he would spend the money to be my co-pilot making $800 a month when he could have waited for the next round of airline hiring and go ahead of me. It was clearly a case of loss of SA.
The question of why the push back is that my having a degree or not has nothing to do with the state of the major airlines. There are many jobs out there that require an ATP. Should we push for something that will have little or no effect on the airlines but could lock those out seeking all of the other fine jobs in aviation. Clearly, a few of us were able to demonstrate our ability to fly a plane. Let the employer choose if they want a degree or not.
12-04-2009 | 08:08 AM
#55
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,534
Likes: 1
From: A320 CA
Blastoff,
I'm not trying to be cute and have no way of knowing where you sit on the great totem pole of aviation.
My observation has formed from many years in the industry. I'll share a quick story. All names removed. I was a captain at a commuter airline. My co-pilot was a Flight Safety pay per view, ex F-18 pilot. All day, all he say was how the guys who had left his squadron 6 months earlier had gone to the majors and he had to sit in the right seat with me. I asked why he would spend the money to be my co-pilot making $800 a month when he could have waited for the next round of airline hiring and go ahead of me. It was clearly a case of loss of SA.
The question of why the push back is that my having a degree or not has nothing to do with the state of the major airlines. There are many jobs out there that require an ATP. Should we push for something that will have little or no effect on the airlines but could lock those out seeking all of the other fine jobs in aviation. Clearly, a few of us were able to demonstrate our ability to fly a plane. Let the employer choose if they want a degree or not.
I'm not trying to be cute and have no way of knowing where you sit on the great totem pole of aviation.
My observation has formed from many years in the industry. I'll share a quick story. All names removed. I was a captain at a commuter airline. My co-pilot was a Flight Safety pay per view, ex F-18 pilot. All day, all he say was how the guys who had left his squadron 6 months earlier had gone to the majors and he had to sit in the right seat with me. I asked why he would spend the money to be my co-pilot making $800 a month when he could have waited for the next round of airline hiring and go ahead of me. It was clearly a case of loss of SA.
The question of why the push back is that my having a degree or not has nothing to do with the state of the major airlines. There are many jobs out there that require an ATP. Should we push for something that will have little or no effect on the airlines but could lock those out seeking all of the other fine jobs in aviation. Clearly, a few of us were able to demonstrate our ability to fly a plane. Let the employer choose if they want a degree or not.
I'll agree that a handful of fighter guys (and heavy guys who wish they were fighter guys) have done a lot to tarnish the reputation of Mil pilots for the rest of us who didn't fly pointy-nosed jets. Most of us Heavy drivers have a bigger picture. We've taken ribbing from those guys our whole careers...some not so good-natured. But I am definitely biased...remember, they're "single seat, multi-role, and can fly right up their own ***hole." Yup, biased.
Last edited by blastoff; 12-04-2009 at 08:27 AM.
12-04-2009 | 08:10 AM
#56
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 315
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From: 757 right seat
Pilots today are often accused of having a sense of entitlement. Critics claim that they seem to have an unbalanced expectation that soon after training they would earn a good living and start out flying their hearts desire.
I can not see as how that is a bad thing. Shouldn't we all have a sense of entitlement? It takes a big cash and life investment to become a professional pilot. Should we all not set high expectations for our careers and hold the industry to it?
I went to college in the late 1980's. Times were good then for pilots. Airlines were hiring. Classmates who had graduated just a year or two prior would commonly return to campus with their TWA, Braniff or Pan Am uniform in a garment bag folder over their forearm. After a quick change in a closet the uniformed pilot would then be escorted into the nearest class interrupting the lecture in progress so that the valiant young airline hero could share tales of his airline life and explain why he went with the hard top corvette instead of the convertible.
We all expected to get hired at a major airline within a few years of graduation. No one suggested that we would be received by the industry any differently. Had we known what our generation of pilots faced I am sure that those speeches would have been given to empty classrooms.
I can empathize with pilots who were sitting in class a few years ago while recent graduates immediately went on to the regional of their choice. Now graduation the latest generation of pilots are dealing with the shock of a very different reception. In their backlash they are labeled as having an "entitlement" attitude and why shouldn't they? Aviation is not a religion it is an investment.
Skyhigh
I can not see as how that is a bad thing. Shouldn't we all have a sense of entitlement? It takes a big cash and life investment to become a professional pilot. Should we all not set high expectations for our careers and hold the industry to it?
I went to college in the late 1980's. Times were good then for pilots. Airlines were hiring. Classmates who had graduated just a year or two prior would commonly return to campus with their TWA, Braniff or Pan Am uniform in a garment bag folder over their forearm. After a quick change in a closet the uniformed pilot would then be escorted into the nearest class interrupting the lecture in progress so that the valiant young airline hero could share tales of his airline life and explain why he went with the hard top corvette instead of the convertible.
We all expected to get hired at a major airline within a few years of graduation. No one suggested that we would be received by the industry any differently. Had we known what our generation of pilots faced I am sure that those speeches would have been given to empty classrooms.
I can empathize with pilots who were sitting in class a few years ago while recent graduates immediately went on to the regional of their choice. Now graduation the latest generation of pilots are dealing with the shock of a very different reception. In their backlash they are labeled as having an "entitlement" attitude and why shouldn't they? Aviation is not a religion it is an investment.
Skyhigh
12-04-2009 | 08:13 AM
#57
ULTP-Ultra Low Tier Pilot
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,228
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12-04-2009 | 08:14 AM
#58
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 315
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From: 757 right seat
Your probably thinking that their all just dum since they cant spell. I'll bet that some of them just loosed there way. I'll also bet that many of the worst speellers are aslo college gradutates.
Just a reflextion of our modern US of A. Oh, almost forget, US is da chit. Nomber 1. Best! Woo Hoo !!!!
Talk 2 u l8tr.
Just a reflextion of our modern US of A. Oh, almost forget, US is da chit. Nomber 1. Best! Woo Hoo !!!!
Talk 2 u l8tr.
I think Africa has affected your spelling abilities. How is the flying over there?
12-04-2009 | 08:26 AM
#59
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,048
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From: Self employed
Our company is doing great; we just completed our first leg to JFK, from LOS. Airbus A340. Taking delivery of number 3. Also, taking first A330 in a few months (2 orders, 2 options), and the first of 5 B777's arrive 3rd quarter 2010. Still taking on new B737-800's. Just got the first two of four Dash-8-Q400's.
We'll go from 216 pilots today to probably doubt that in a year. Fun time to be here.
12-04-2009 | 08:31 AM
#60
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,048
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From: Self employed
You're the recipient of a bachelor degree, correct?
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