Colgan, union differ on cause of fatal crash
#21
Think about the A/C as well. The profile was being followed, but loss of sit awarness was key. Everyone is going to slam the pilots, and some blame is deserved. But don't forget the environment as well. Severe Icing forecast and SLD was present. The co-pilot was jabbering like a monkey about the ice build up. If the had all ice protection on and they were still picking up ice, then it was SLD period. In any event it should have been, "get the heck" out of there. The captian didn't notice that the A/C slowed because the auto pilot had trimmed the airplane tail to a maximum nose up position and when the pilots received the shaker the capt slammed the throttles forward producing a 20 degree nose up... remember the auto pilot trimmed max nose up based on power settings. Then the airplaned stalled probably tucked a wing due to ice again and well the rest we know. It is easy to second guess but situationally the crew was way behind and it bit them. I'm sure the new legislation will all make us safer in the end. I'm sure 1500 hours will make all pilots bullet proof and able to save all passengers from terrible accidents from ever happening. I wonder why ALPA signed off on the new HR 3371 so fast?
YouTube - Colgan Flight 3407 NTSB Animation of Buffalo Accident Q400
You'll notice the throttles stay near idle until the airplane is at the edge of a stall, then he jams the throttles while applying back pressure, meanwhile someone retracts the flaps. I used to teach CFI candidates, so I did spin training nearly every day in a fleet of fairly spin resistant airplanes. We had one airframe that was so resistant, that in order to make it go over, we had to jam the throttle and apply extra back pressure right at the edge of a stall, quite similar to what this crew did at glideslope intercept!
You had to include a sarcastic remark about 1500 hours in your post, and on other threads people are questioning the quality of a CFI who's been saying "right rudder" for 1500 hours. No one should doubt that a good instructor should develop an understanding of basic airmanship, which was central to this accident. There are no shortcuts to competency, and you certainly can't buy it.
I've flown with quite a few low time pilots in 20 series Learjets, and a firm grasp of the fundamentals, even if learned while correcting students' mistakes, separates the people who are trainable from the people who'll never be more than gear monkeys.
#22
guys, take some time and go to this link CD List Of Contents
read the company submission dated dec 7 on what happened, they slam the pilots like there is no tomorrow and discuss all the things you are discussing on this board. Next, go to the alpa sumbmission also dated dec 7. At the end of the day it is still pilot error but they do a good job of explaining many human factors that related to the crash and lack of consistency and flight standards due to the fact that the company threw this airplane on line with out a complete manual. They have several quotes by check airmen that contridict each other on speeds and profiles which further demonstrates the fact that we have no standards for this airplane.
I knew Marvin, he failed checkrides in the past. At the end of the day, on the night of the crash he had over 3000 hrs, an atp, two type ratings and was qualified to operate the flight. Rebecca had over 2000 hrs, a clean record, had been a cfi and the feedback from her instructors and peers was all positive.
At the end of the day, none of us are bullet proof and we can all make a mistake. Any of you ever have a TP in the sim. Its a good thing it happended in the sim because if it would have happened in the real world you would be on CNN. Does that make you a terrible pilot? No, it makes you a human being tasked with flying an airplane.
read the company submission dated dec 7 on what happened, they slam the pilots like there is no tomorrow and discuss all the things you are discussing on this board. Next, go to the alpa sumbmission also dated dec 7. At the end of the day it is still pilot error but they do a good job of explaining many human factors that related to the crash and lack of consistency and flight standards due to the fact that the company threw this airplane on line with out a complete manual. They have several quotes by check airmen that contridict each other on speeds and profiles which further demonstrates the fact that we have no standards for this airplane.
I knew Marvin, he failed checkrides in the past. At the end of the day, on the night of the crash he had over 3000 hrs, an atp, two type ratings and was qualified to operate the flight. Rebecca had over 2000 hrs, a clean record, had been a cfi and the feedback from her instructors and peers was all positive.
At the end of the day, none of us are bullet proof and we can all make a mistake. Any of you ever have a TP in the sim. Its a good thing it happended in the sim because if it would have happened in the real world you would be on CNN. Does that make you a terrible pilot? No, it makes you a human being tasked with flying an airplane.
#23
"Not to mention, they were also distracted with non-essential communication between each other all the way from their departure airport on a pretty short flight. Reference the CVR... the Captain didn't even adjust his seat for the approach until he was on a last vector for the ILS. They were still chatting in bad weather at night on an ILS 2 minutes before the crash!"
I confess I have broken the sterile cockpit rules. So did Sully prior to landing in the Hudson. I do not condone such behavior, but have you EVER broken sterile cockpit? If so, but for the grace of the almighty, we could be blaming you for the loss if life.
I confess I have broken the sterile cockpit rules. So did Sully prior to landing in the Hudson. I do not condone such behavior, but have you EVER broken sterile cockpit? If so, but for the grace of the almighty, we could be blaming you for the loss if life.
#24
Wow. Tell us how you really feel.
He short cut the system the like anyone else who took a job without having an ATP.
Preach all you want, but Colgan's pilots and procedures were accepted by the FAA, just like every other airline. Since 99% of businesses will seek the lowest common denominator, the only way to increase quality is through regulation: H.R. 3371. Because even if Colgan went away today, there would be some other demon spawn to take over.
He short cut the system the like anyone else who took a job without having an ATP.
Preach all you want, but Colgan's pilots and procedures were accepted by the FAA, just like every other airline. Since 99% of businesses will seek the lowest common denominator, the only way to increase quality is through regulation: H.R. 3371. Because even if Colgan went away today, there would be some other demon spawn to take over.
#25
Actually, he's a first class guy. If you've never met him I wouldn't judge him on his last name. He worked closely on the 3701 accident and is very committed to safety at Colgan. He came from Pinnacle and has arguably the most extensive resume in safety in the industry.
#27
So you were there and knows he pulled back on the yoke instead of it pitching up due to trim right?
#28
The captain did pass all the tests required by the FAA to be an ATP... eventually. Guess that means he was a great pilot by your standards. Colgan has a reputation for doing the minimum. Going by the training record of the Captain, looks like he had a hard time achieving the minimum requirements but after enough tries he got through it. Never give up. Is this a guy you want your family flying around with? If he made it, there has to be more pilots out there who were willing to work for sooo cheap that the company couldn't say no to. Unfortunately we'll find out in a few years when they upgrade.
I think the changes 3371 would bring are a good start.
#29
The DFDR shows the position of the yoke during the flight and is displayed on the video. The video obviously shows that he pulled back on the yoke.
Last edited by Cycle Pilot; 12-15-2009 at 01:12 PM. Reason: Too much sarcasm...
#30
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: B-737NG preferably in first class with a glass of champagne and caviar
Posts: 5,912
And if these two were paid, let's say $200.00 an hour, would the out come be different. Doubtful. Low pay is no excuse for ignorance nor unprofessional behavior in the cockpit.
These two had no business being where they were that night, let alone with any airline, that has a responsible training and checking program for that matter. Yeah... I know the training department looks great on paper. But in practice??? very deficient.
I just don't see the difference when little Johnny who should be left behind to repeat the 4th grade is promoted to the 5th grade. He just gets further and further behind. I'm sure the captain was a great guy to drink a beer with... but still does not make him the ace of the base.
These two had no business being where they were that night, let alone with any airline, that has a responsible training and checking program for that matter. Yeah... I know the training department looks great on paper. But in practice??? very deficient.
I just don't see the difference when little Johnny who should be left behind to repeat the 4th grade is promoted to the 5th grade. He just gets further and further behind. I'm sure the captain was a great guy to drink a beer with... but still does not make him the ace of the base.
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