Originally Posted by meeko031

yeah, good luck with that! That's what pilots said when they were in your shoes a "few short years" back

Originally Posted by asims33

I should clarify all of this into one post...


I am not rich

I am not ok with current pay rates for pilots nor will i ever be... My remarks on my investments were in reply to someone warning me of the industry as it is now i was only explaining that my financial situation will allow me to take a pay cut for a few short years until things get better. This is no way means i support lower pay and am ok with it at all.

I got involved in this conversation when i saw a capitain say something disrespectful towards newer pilots.

If i have offended anyone and any point you have my apologies. I am not a problem to the industry because i share the same beliefs as all of you and i will be your biggest support in the fight for better rights for pilots as i am right now.

Originally Posted by asims33

Im personally really sick of reading this crap day in and day out... Its the same stuff over and over. You high time Airline pilots are always looking down your nose at those "Wet-ATP-Kid-Wonders" that make it to the right seat....I think the phrase is wet COMMERCIAL, not sure anyone dislikes a wet atp....


The airline must have saw some skill in that kid or he wouldnt have been there.Here again, he just had to be trainable and legal. If you dont like the industry then leave... If you had to have more hours to be hired than the current market that sucks sorry but i dont wanna hear you complain.It's been mentioned, but if you don't want to hear someone complain, why would they want to hear you? I am only 20 years old,So that college degree and life experience is really weighing you down then ive jumped hurdles and moved mountains to finish my flight training and ill be dammed if i let some bitter old capitain sit here and disrespect me and other young pilots by saying we havent payed our dues Those aren't dues, those are bills... big difference...Hell just finishing training is almost impossible nowadays, flight schools trying to rip you off, greedy examiners, bad weather, terrible economy, high fuel prices, bad hiring market, And all of that is cyclical so it's very possible those same captains had a similar bag in the 80's or 90's following recessions and to beat it all the more experiance pilots like some of you are so bitter you wont even look in the direction of a student pilot or a new pilot let alone help them or give them advice. You should be happy that we dont have to live off food stamps while waiting for a job....Im really sorry if you did, but now you are living your dream you should be stoked. The dream turns into a nightmare faster than you imagine Sounds to me like you are a bit immature 20 year old calling someone immature, that's pretty darn funny to say stuff like that. Im sitting in a marketing office at an insurance company going insane behind a desk to pay my bills waiting for my chance to fly for an airline or cargo company, i have no clue what "dues" you are talking about but that is not in the job requirements sir you need to grow up. And the fact you don't know what they are doesn't help your case.


As far as the minimums id say they are gonna be high to start off with just like everyone else. But as ive already learned newer pilots just need to hang in there our time will come.

Originally Posted by aviatorhi

Then don't make it sound like you are.

Frankly if you don't know your [stuff] you're not gonna get any respect, a lot of these senior guys will get a feel for you from how you conduct yourself on the radio (are you the clueless FO who doesn't know how to request a clearance from a remote airport?), how comfortable you feel in the plane and how you know your systems... if you aren't dead on with your answers their potential respect for you (which is already reduced because they don't feel you've spent enough time cutting your teeth) will be reduced further, and first impressions make all the difference. These guys are ****ed, and rightly so, that someone can pay 70 grand and is willing accept sub par wages for years just so they can play pilot and do what these same guys spent their lives earning the right to do.

I know of an AirWis pilot or two who are at wits end telling AllATPs wonders or JetU types to "stop [messing] with the FMS and flying the [darn] airplane", only to have the FO look back at them like deer in the headlights, and if you conduct yourself on the radio and professionally similarly to one of these "FO Wonder Boys/Girls" you'll get the same treatment, like it or not.

Originally Posted by Blueskies21

To start, I'm not angry even 1% so you don't need to project your anger on me.
The nice thing about youth is being so very sure you're correct. You might find that once you give up your anger and accept the situation, with the proper attitude you could learn something from those "bitter old captains" turns out they have a whole wealth of knowledge. The sooner you stop thinking they're "bitter old captains" and realize they just MIGHT know something more than you (shocking I know b/c you're 20 and know it all) the sooner you might be able to EARN their respect. It's a two way street, you don't respect them- surprise they don't respect you either. It's possible you'll still ride with some a-holes, I have but at least if you're trying to respect him and he just isn't respecting you, you took the high road and you can tell your fiance what a jerk he was when you get home.
Just my two cents, best of luck to you.

Originally Posted by asims33

However generalizing all young pilots into this group who went to a diploma mill is just rediculous, people already have an idea of me and my flying before i even sit down just because of my age that isnt right. .

Originally Posted by asims33

Well i disagree that i made it sound like i was BUT again i apologize if i did.

However generalizing all young pilots into this group who went to a diploma mill is just rediculous, people already have an idea of me and my flying before i even sit down just because of my age that isnt right. And im sorry but those who DID go to a 70 grand school still earned a right to BE a pilot and its when you say things like "play pilot" that gets at me. Even though i did not even go to a 141 school it still makes me a bit angry that these guys are looked at that way... Not one student pilot that i have ever talked to takes this as a joke.

At any rate i can most deff understand a captains frustration, my girlfriends father is a captain at PSA Airlines and i have heard some horror stories from him about incompetent pilots getting the right seat, but he doesnt generalize them nor does he crucify then when they mess up he tries to educate them and help them out. and thats all im saying ALL captains should do.

Again my anger is directed at those who generalize all young pilots into a group of immature, incompetent, bad pilots.

Originally Posted by CFItillIdie

Since I seemed to have started a flame war here on this thread, let me explain two things.

1) I know of way too many dudes who jumped on the bandwagon and got in the door who were the 500 hr wonders that are furloughed. Most of those dudes could not get a gig because they BURNED BRIDGES or they just could care less to instruct because it was below them. They are not doing anything to further their careers as pilots and belong on the street.

I hear it way too much on here that people are just casually collecting a check from the unemployment office, and sound like they could care less about finding any flying gig. My hats off to those who are in the trenches doing the right things they need to do (jump pilots, instructors, box haulers) to get their time in.

2) Don't assume that everyone on here who is a CFI is some young buck with acne who doesn't know how the industry works. I may not have RJ training, but I do have other training in my hip pocket that would help a great deal with RJ school. I know the difference between a 172 and a Jet, but thanks for your sarcasm. I am not going to sit here and discus my resume, because that would just not be polite. But I don't need any of you people to do a damn thing to walk in my resume, but thanks for the thought. And hell yeah I can fly the XXXX out of a 172...can you? Everyone on here needs to loosen up the belt just a little bit, myself included. This industry sucks, and if you don't have a back up plan, well then you are just in quicksand.

Originally Posted by asims33

Ok ill try to address everything here.

First off patronizing my life experiances and college degree as less than your own (I don't know that it qualifies as patronizing... I was simply mentioning at 20 it would be hard for you to have a 4 year degree and a huge amount of life experience.. that's not patronizing... that's MATH)does not help me look at your argument as logical and doing that all while calling me immature is a bit rediculous.

Im 20 so im automatically immature? (Not automatically)After all this talk of not generalizing and you make that statement? And i didnt say anyone was immature i said they were ACTING immature. Why does this have to turn childish?(It doesn't)

You can disagree with me if you like, thats your right. I have not generalized all captains into this "bitter old captain" stuff i was talking about so dont take that wrong. (I must have missed that part, sounded to me like most captains were bitter old men, my fault)And absolutely they do have a wealth of knowledge...If you just simply look back a few posts my argument was that they stop being angry at that guy in the right seat for being young and lucky and start helping him become a pilot that you could respect.

I do not think i know it all haha, you must have a child around my age.(I don't have any kids and if I did them being 20 would pretty much be impossible, 5 maybe... again that's math) You have me all wrong, i have read on these forums day in and day out people saying stuff like the wet-atp-wonders or play pilots or any of the others take your pick, and i am tired of seeing it so i made a comment on it.

20 years old or not my logic is dead on that it is plain silly to generalize all young pilots into a group that does not know what they are doing.(Agreed) Just like it is silly to generalize all captains into a group of bitter old guys. (Agreed)Granted we do not know everything because alot can only come from experi[E]nce that is where the captains come in, but some of us deserve the spot we sit in and some of us are plenty good enough.

I am not angry with you or anyone plesae dont take it that way.

Originally Posted by NightIP

Look, just don't take it personally. I'm not an old crusty captain, but I'll tell you that flying with new FOs can be pretty frustrating. It's not that they're bad pilots; they just don't know the operation or the airplane very well. We've all been there. A good captain will be patient and will mentor the new pilot to make him better. There are plenty of captains who'd rather just sit there and whine, though.

That said, even patience goes so far. I've flown with several new FOs who flare the airplane like it's a 172, completely leveling off at 10'. My airplane doesn't have a cockpit door, so I've had to grab the yoke and push the airplane down onto the runway with passengers looking on. How professional does that look when I have to make a "save" in front of paying passengers? It looks terrible. That's what irks me when flying with a new guy. Not all are like that, but the few of those guys I've had to work with just make things look unprofessional. That annoys me.

Anyway, again, don't take it personally. Just work as hard as you can and be humble.