XJ 9E 9L SLI Thread
03-10-2011, 10:48 AM
#191
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Joined APC: Jan 2008
Posts: 152
Originally Posted by MunkyButtr
I'd like to see how a Colgan pilot would defend relative senority. I don't want to see anything about career expectations and "that's just the way it is" or ALPA policy. I want to see a legitamate defense of Colgan pilots getting relative senority. I personally don't think it'll happen, but who knows. Who wants to take this one?
It sounds like a pre-school class fighting over a cake. 9E and XJ, for the most part, just want their fair share with as little bugs and pet hair as possible (obviously there are those at each airline that want the other to suffer, thats a given). Only from this forum and from the few Colgan pilots I've spoken with it seems like they are the whiney kids in the corner crying for the biggest share of the cake. I just see this argument as baseless and as selfish as a four year old crying for more cake. What makes any of you think that relative senority is the right way to integrate you guys? I'm not Colgan bashing but seriously guys, where do you get off? Why do you deserve relative senority that would crush and I mean absolutely crush the juinor, but senior to you pilots at the other airlines?
It sounds like a pre-school class fighting over a cake. 9E and XJ, for the most part, just want their fair share with as little bugs and pet hair as possible (obviously there are those at each airline that want the other to suffer, thats a given). Only from this forum and from the few Colgan pilots I've spoken with it seems like they are the whiney kids in the corner crying for the biggest share of the cake. I just see this argument as baseless and as selfish as a four year old crying for more cake. What makes any of you think that relative senority is the right way to integrate you guys? I'm not Colgan bashing but seriously guys, where do you get off? Why do you deserve relative senority that would crush and I mean absolutely crush the juinor, but senior to you pilots at the other airlines?
Whether you like munkybuttr or are a shy guy, we know you're stance is correct and superior, you have important things to say, and we should all listen as you feel you should be heard. But in actuality your opinion means ****. And I say it again, a post on an Internet forum has no bearing on the ultimate decision or is it productive at all. As much as it hurts, you are not in charge, just a very small piece of a very large system. All your posts are doing is driving a bigger wedge between the "one list." Now who's childish?
Last edited by whtever; 03-10-2011 at 11:11 AM.
03-10-2011, 11:26 AM
#192
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Joined APC: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,498
Originally Posted by whtever
Take some time and read the previous posts. A vast majority are from pilots like yourself attacking the Colgan pilots and provoking strife and argument, not 9L guys "crying over cake." There are very few 9L pilots posting their support for relative seniority regardless of which side of the fence they're actually on (no pun intended). Having said that, and if you were truly in the position of a 9L pilot, would you actively pursue a lower seniority number? Probably not. You would be doing what you can to protect your current situation, right or wrong. If someone called your sister ugly, you'd defend her, whether or not she is, right? It's human nature, not personal.
Whether you like munkybuttr or are a shy guy, we know you're stance is correct and superior, you have important things to say, and we should all listen as you feel you should be heard. But in actuality your opinion means ****. And I say it again, a post on an Internet forum has no bearing on the ultimate decision or is it productive at all. As much as it hurts, you are not in charge, just a very small piece of a very large system. All your posts are doing is driving a bigger wedge between the "one list." Now who's childish?
Whether you like munkybuttr or are a shy guy, we know you're stance is correct and superior, you have important things to say, and we should all listen as you feel you should be heard. But in actuality your opinion means ****. And I say it again, a post on an Internet forum has no bearing on the ultimate decision or is it productive at all. As much as it hurts, you are not in charge, just a very small piece of a very large system. All your posts are doing is driving a bigger wedge between the "one list." Now who's childish?
03-10-2011, 12:02 PM
#193
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Joined APC: Sep 2008
Posts: 239
No matter how this SLI pans out, if one group of pilots is really P***ed and the other group is really happy, it was a poorly executed integration. I also am not in favor of bending over and just taking it because we have our first contract either. Frankly, any Mesaba pilot that was furloughed at the time of the purchase should feel fortunate to have a job. They shouldn't have an axe to grind if they are placed at the bottom of the list between those pilots on the property and any new-hires. I am not saying that I like that scenario either, but that is the precedent that has been used before in these deals. However, under the LOA. Mesaba's furloughees received preferential and will retain their original XJ seniority.
Sooner or later the honeymoon with this merger is going to be over and some people are going to feel like ALPA, the company, etc... all conspired to screw them. I don't think that is truly the case, but more a case of life just isn't always fair...
Sooner or later the honeymoon with this merger is going to be over and some people are going to feel like ALPA, the company, etc... all conspired to screw them. I don't think that is truly the case, but more a case of life just isn't always fair...
03-10-2011, 03:42 PM
#194
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Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: 73N
Posts: 859
If you want to grasp a realistic picture of how this will likely turn out, you must factor the expected career progression for each airline as if they were never part of pncl. This may **** a lot of you mesaba and colgan people off, but you can't run from the facts. The arbitrator will look at where you would likely be without this integration, and will factor that into his decision, that is fact. Colgan would be without any large growth (Q400s) and mesaba would be sabb-less in the coming months with plenty of furloughs on they way. You can make all sorts of irrational arguments based on your personal opinion of "fair", but these factors will be part of the arbitrated decision.
03-10-2011, 04:10 PM
#195
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Joined APC: Sep 2010
Position: Up Front
Posts: 1,628
Originally Posted by ebl14
If you want to grasp a realistic picture of how this will likely turn out, you must factor the expected career progression for each airline as if they were never part of pncl. This may **** a lot of you mesaba and colgan people off, but you can't run from the facts. The arbitrator will look at where you would likely be without this integration, and will factor that into his decision, that is fact. Colgan would be without any large growth (Q400s) and mesaba would be sabb-less in the coming months with plenty of furloughs on they way. You can make all sorts of irrational arguments based on your personal opinion of "fair", but these factors will be part of the arbitrated decision.
Let's see.....
Those pilots that favor DOH:
- bottom 75% of 9E (only the top 25% lose a little of thier relative position)
- top 50% of XJ (the bottom 50% lose some relative position)
The pilots that lose relative position due to DOH in this scenario, do not lose as much as the pilots would lose if pure relative were implemented.
XJ and 9E that is, Colgan loses alot with straight DOH, but I feel they gained alot just due to the one contract.
03-10-2011, 04:13 PM
#196
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Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 599
Originally Posted by ebl14
If you want to grasp a realistic picture of how this will likely turn out, you must factor the expected career progression for each airline as if they were never part of pncl. This may **** a lot of you mesaba and colgan people off, but you can't run from the facts. The arbitrator will look at where you would likely be without this integration, and will factor that into his decision, that is fact. Colgan would be without any large growth (Q400s) and mesaba would be sabb-less in the coming months with plenty of furloughs on they way. You can make all sorts of irrational arguments based on your personal opinion of "fair", but these factors will be part of the arbitrated decision.
03-10-2011, 04:33 PM
#197
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Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 66
Look, most of us at Colgan just want to be treated equally with the pilots from XJ and 9E. We all had our reasons for ending up where we are today. A relative integration protects everyones current quality of life. If you are a senior pilot now, you should be a senior pilot when this all finishes.
If it ends up straight DOH everyones QOL at 9L will be hurt which is not in line with the Alpa merger policy.
Some combination of DOH and Relative seams to be the answer
If it ends up straight DOH everyones QOL at 9L will be hurt which is not in line with the Alpa merger policy.
Some combination of DOH and Relative seams to be the answer
03-10-2011, 04:39 PM
#198
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Joined APC: Sep 2010
Position: Up Front
Posts: 1,628
Originally Posted by yodafly
Look, most of us at Colgan just want to be treated equally with the pilots from XJ and 9E. We all had our reasons for ending up where we are today. A relative integration protects everyones current quality of life. If you are a senior pilot now, you should be a senior pilot when this all finishes.
If it ends up straight DOH everyones QOL at 9L will be hurt which is not in line with the Alpa merger policy.
Some combination of DOH and Relative seams to be the answer
If it ends up straight DOH everyones QOL at 9L will be hurt which is not in line with the Alpa merger policy.
Some combination of DOH and Relative seams to be the answer
How many senior 9E and XJ guys are going to bid Colgan bases after integration?
Some, probably..... But the large majority will stay with the jets leaving the Colgan bases junior anyway, not affecting anyones QOL.
03-10-2011, 04:39 PM
#199
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Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 66
Originally Posted by ChipChelios
Why didn't Pncl just skip buying Colgan and just snap up some Q400's? I'm not sure it's that simple!
1. Colgan had code share agreements with USAir, United, Continental and 9L did not.
2. Colgan had made the deal with Continental on the Q400 and 9L wanted the growth.
03-10-2011, 04:55 PM
#200
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Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: SF340 CA
Posts: 59
[QUOTE=Bartok;961989]You're probably right about the combination, but Colgans QOL will not go down due to straight DOH.
How do you figure??? Being a captain and having 400-500 FO's ahead of me on the list wont affect my QOL. I wont be on reserve and essentially be no better than a street captain forever?
I thought the ALPA merger policy was to prevent windfalls in EITHER direction. Dumping 500 FOs ahead of a captain I'd probably say is a windfall.
I may be missing something but I just don't see how relative seniority is unfair. Everyone remains in the same place. The same distance from upgrading, the same chunk of pilots ahead and behind them.
I feel like some of the XJ and Pinnacle guys are expecting to go from FO to an instant upgrade and then on top of that they expect to be able to hold a line by having a ton of guys below them on the list. How is that not a windfall?
How do you figure??? Being a captain and having 400-500 FO's ahead of me on the list wont affect my QOL. I wont be on reserve and essentially be no better than a street captain forever?
I thought the ALPA merger policy was to prevent windfalls in EITHER direction. Dumping 500 FOs ahead of a captain I'd probably say is a windfall.
I may be missing something but I just don't see how relative seniority is unfair. Everyone remains in the same place. The same distance from upgrading, the same chunk of pilots ahead and behind them.
I feel like some of the XJ and Pinnacle guys are expecting to go from FO to an instant upgrade and then on top of that they expect to be able to hold a line by having a ton of guys below them on the list. How is that not a windfall?
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