XJ 9E 9L SLI Thread
#201
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 66
You're probably right about the combination, but Colgans QOL will not go down due to straight DOH.
How many senior 9E and XJ guys are going to bid Colgan bases after integration?
Some, probably..... But the large majority will stay with the jets leaving the Colgan bases junior anyway, not affecting anyones QOL.
How many senior 9E and XJ guys are going to bid Colgan bases after integration?
Some, probably..... But the large majority will stay with the jets leaving the Colgan bases junior anyway, not affecting anyones QOL.
I am tired of hearing how Colgan pilots should not be integrated on an equal basis to 9L and XJ. We all are here now, we all work for the same company and should all be treated fairly. Each list has people at different levels that benefit from one method or another but what is fair for one or two companies is fair for all.
#202
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: East coast
Posts: 380
#204
Fine by me.
Let's see.....
Those pilots that favor DOH:
- bottom 75% of 9E (only the top 25% lose a little of thier relative position)
- top 50% of XJ (the bottom 50% lose some relative position)
The pilots that lose relative position due to DOH in this scenario, do not lose as much as the pilots would lose if pure relative were implemented.
XJ and 9E that is, Colgan loses alot with straight DOH, but I feel they gained alot just due to the one contract.
Let's see.....
Those pilots that favor DOH:
- bottom 75% of 9E (only the top 25% lose a little of thier relative position)
- top 50% of XJ (the bottom 50% lose some relative position)
The pilots that lose relative position due to DOH in this scenario, do not lose as much as the pilots would lose if pure relative were implemented.
XJ and 9E that is, Colgan loses alot with straight DOH, but I feel they gained alot just due to the one contract.
The only scenario I could see doh being a factor would be to sort all captains based on relative senority and all fos by doh. This won't happen though because: 1) it screws the colgan guys that would have ended up better off than xj fos in the same doh and 2) like your assertions, it is based on a feeling of "fairness" that doesn't play into arbitrated decisions.
#205
How do you figure??? Being a captain and having 400-500 FO's ahead of me on the list wont affect my QOL. I wont be on reserve and essentially be no better than a street captain forever?
I thought the ALPA merger policy was to prevent windfalls in EITHER direction. Dumping 500 FOs ahead of a captain I'd probably say is a windfall.
I may be missing something but I just don't see how relative seniority is unfair. Everyone remains in the same place. The same distance from upgrading, the same chunk of pilots ahead and behind them.
I feel like some of the XJ and Pinnacle guys are expecting to go from FO to an instant upgrade and then on top of that they expect to be able to hold a line by having a ton of guys below them on the list. How is that not a windfall?
You go straight relative seniority, Colgan guys will be able to hold -900 and -200 Captain positions with hire dates way junior to 9E and XJ guys due to a huge bump from relative integration.
How is that not a windfall?
#206
You are living in fantasy land. It isn't about what we "favor" one way or another. Look over past arbitrations and use past awards to determine a more likely outcome. Making senoir xj pilots "happy" will not be on the arbitrators to do list. DOH will not be used, just look at recent awards, it doesn't factor much into any of the decisions.
The only scenario I could see doh being a factor would be to sort all captains based on relative senority and all fos by doh. This won't happen though because: 1) it screws the colgan guys that would have ended up better off than xj fos in the same doh and 2) like your assertions, it is based on a feeling of "fairness" that doesn't play into arbitrated decisions.
The only scenario I could see doh being a factor would be to sort all captains based on relative senority and all fos by doh. This won't happen though because: 1) it screws the colgan guys that would have ended up better off than xj fos in the same doh and 2) like your assertions, it is based on a feeling of "fairness" that doesn't play into arbitrated decisions.
You yourself said the arbitrations favor the "buying" company, DOH favors the "buying" company, unless you're in that top 25% of 9E and then I see how you might want it differently.
#207
If you want to grasp a realistic picture of how this will likely turn out, you must factor the expected career progression for each airline as if they were never part of pncl. This may **** a lot of you mesaba and colgan people off, but you can't run from the facts. The arbitrator will look at where you would likely be without this integration, and will factor that into his decision, that is fact. Colgan would be without any large growth (Q400s) and mesaba would be sabb-less in the coming months with plenty of furloughs on they way. You can make all sorts of irrational arguments based on your personal opinion of "fair", but these factors will be part of the arbitrated decision.
Again, we are all equals, and deserve such. Enough of this my rj is better than your rj.
#208
I think that 9E folks need to remember that they have 120 plus 50 seaters with contracts due in a few years, not exactly promising if we are going to play the "where would we be now game if 9e hadn't of saved us". XJ and 9L both have the future for regional flying in the form of lots of 900s, Q400s, and yes even the SAAB is still a key player. My point is that 9E did not save anybody, and are not entitled to special treatment. What has happened is they have combined the best of all three airlines in an attempt to remain competitive. Look at XJET, ASA, and SKW all tying the not, it is how the industry is now fellas. I said it before and I'll say it agian, the colgan guys had the most certain future of anybody, with growth on the saab and q400 fleets, while Mesaba looked second best with some 900s at least, but 9E has 120 RJs that we all know are on the way out...so factor that in and it looks like 9e comes out as the biggest loser for career progression.
Again, we are all equals, and deserve such. Enough of this my rj is better than your rj.
Again, we are all equals, and deserve such. Enough of this my rj is better than your rj.
#209
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: Former XJ, Corporate HS-125
Posts: 153
From Pinnacle Corp's 4th quarter financials..
"Mesaba Aviation, Inc. ("Mesaba"), which the Company acquired on July 1, 2010, achieved operating income of $3.8 million and $6.8 million for the three and twelve months ended December 31, 2010, respectively. After taking into account interest expense on a $63.3 million note issued as part of the acquisition, Mesaba's financial results have been accretive to the Company's consolidated net income and EPS. In addition, the Company's operating cash flows were improved by approximately $23 million during 2010 due to the acquisition of Mesaba."
Sounds like XJ's doing a pretty decent job of paying 9E's "loan" to Delta off. Delta essentially gave XJ to Pinnacle. I'm happy XJ's profits are no longer going directly into RA and Delta's back pocket and will be kept in house to hopefully benefit all of us at PINNACLE CORP. This should also lay the argument, "9e saved XJ by buying them from Delta", to rest...at least until next quarter's financial reports are released
Sounds like XJ's doing a pretty decent job of paying 9E's "loan" to Delta off. Delta essentially gave XJ to Pinnacle. I'm happy XJ's profits are no longer going directly into RA and Delta's back pocket and will be kept in house to hopefully benefit all of us at PINNACLE CORP. This should also lay the argument, "9e saved XJ by buying them from Delta", to rest...at least until next quarter's financial reports are released
#210
DOH will not favor 75% of 9E. It may favor the lower 40-50% at the cost of completely screwing the top half royally. That kind of garbage may fly at XJ, but not here.
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