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Old 05-26-2011 | 05:57 PM
  #141  
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Pilots were paid starting 1st day of TRNG
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Old 05-26-2011 | 05:59 PM
  #142  
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Originally Posted by Mesabah
Higney as I understand it, your merger committee did not submit the proper list to the arbitrator during the time period specified by ALPA merger policy. You can't change the list or submit evidence the day the award is supposed to come out. How are XJ and 9L pilots to blame if your own merger committee is the one who screwed up?
I can say with 95% certainty you would change your tune if it was you. I thought you wanted a "fair" sli?!?!
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Old 05-26-2011 | 06:00 PM
  #143  
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Originally Posted by Mesabah
Did the pinnacle pilots start getting paid on the first day of class or not until the checkride was complete? ALPA merger policy says DOH is when a pilot first shows up on the company payroll and starts operational training. I think this is what the dispute is over.
Paid yes, but not as employees, you are treated as an independent contractor until you pass your checkride
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Old 05-26-2011 | 06:20 PM
  #144  
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Originally Posted by Al Czervik
I can say with 95% certainty you would change your tune if it was you. I thought you wanted a "fair" sli?!?!
True, but that's a pretty big oversight by your committee is it not? Why did it happen? Is this yet another political stunt like that Memphis picket was? If so, you might pay the price for it. Our XJ MEC obviously wants to be in control of this union post merger, do you not think they are going to jump all over your MEC's mistakes?
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Old 05-26-2011 | 06:21 PM
  #145  
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your merger committee did not submit the proper list to the arbitrator during the time period specified by ALPA merger policy. You can't change the list or submit evidence the day the award is supposed to come out. How are XJ and 9L pilots to blame if your own merger committee is the one who screwed up?
Yes you can.

More important than the ALPA merger policy is the individually-agreed upon Process and Protocol agreements amongst all 3 carriers: XJ, 9E, 9L.

Here it is:

4. Compilation, verification, certification and exchange of employment data for their pilots for the Seniority List Integration (SLI) process shall commence promptly and be conducted in accordance with Parts 3.C2 and 3.C3 of Merger Policy, modified as follows:

a. PCL/MSA/CJC MEC merger representatives will agree on the employment data to be compiled (e.g., name, EE number, seniority number, DOH, DOB, Equipment/Status/AC/Domicile, furlough time, leaves of absence. etc.). Merger representatives may agree that certain leaves of absence do not have meaning in the SLI process and can be excluded from the compilation.

b. MEC merger representatives will internally compile their respective pilot group’s employment data, distribute the information to each of their pilots for confirmation, and resolve any individual pilot disputes, prior to November 22, 2010.

c. Certified seniority lists will be exchanged on or about November 29, 2010.

d. The certified seniority lists will be modified to reflect changes in individual pilot employment data prior to the completion of the SLI process or submission of issues for a final and binding Arbitration Award.


That last part (d.) pretty much says it right there. The certificated lists will be modified to reflect changes to individual pilot employment data prior to the completion of the SLI process. On May 22, the SLI process was not complete. Today, the SLI process is not complete. So per the Protocol/Process agreement, the change was allowed, and the change was necessitated by LOA#2 transition agreement V.

I realize a person like you would like to see Pinnacle pilots get screwed 2-4 months of seniority for nothing more than your own personal gain, but lets be fair, and follow the process/protocol agreement.
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Old 05-26-2011 | 06:23 PM
  #146  
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Originally Posted by Al Czervik
XJ guys...do you honestly think the hire dates were moved 8 months deliberately? Just wondering.
I'm not sure about moving everyone's date of hire by 8 months but I am of the opinion that the list was deliberately doctored. Why is it that Colgan and XJ were able to promptly submit a correct list but it took 9E two tries and it still wasn't right? The 9E union leadership always has an excuse. I also believe that the 9E merger committee is trying to unscrupulously submit evidence furthering their cause despite it being well past the deadline for submitting proposals.

Originally Posted by Al Czervik
I can say with 95% certainty you would change your tune if it was you. I thought you wanted a "fair" sli?!?!
Do you want a fair SLI? Your leadership is representing you and from my admittedly biased perspective they are doing everything in their power to ensure the list is anything but fair.
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Old 05-26-2011 | 06:33 PM
  #147  
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Originally Posted by Mesabah
Did the pinnacle pilots start getting paid on the first day of class or not until the checkride was complete? ALPA merger policy says DOH is when a pilot first shows up on the company payroll and starts operational training. I think this is what the dispute is over.
Here's the ALPA Merger definition of DOH:



d. The date of hire shall be the date upon which a pilot first appears upon the Company's payroll as a pilot and also begins initial operational training required to perform such duties in airline operations. Pilots who initially function as flight deck crew members in positions other than that of a pilot, but whose working agreement allows normal progression in accordance with seniority to pilot status, shall be considered as being employed as a pilot for purposes of this Section. Persons who initially function as flight deck crew members, but in a classification which did not allow normal progression to pilot status in accordance with seniority, and who have subsequently gained the right of progression to pilot status by agreement with ALPA, shall acquire date of hire as a pilot as of the date specified by such agreement. Where an initial date of hire as a flight deck crew member is different from an initial date of hire as a pilot as defined above, both sets of data, together with explanations, shall be compiled for the purpose of resolving any inconsistencies among the parties to the merger with respect to special rights for such individuals.
So, how does this fit with 9E?
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Old 05-26-2011 | 06:34 PM
  #148  
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Originally Posted by aviatorpr
Paid yes, but not as employees, you are treated as an independent contractor until you pass your checkride
It still boils my blood when I think about it, but I was never paid a dime until I passed my initial checkride. I didn't even get my lodging paid for, which was somewhat of a blessing in disguise because I didn't have to live at any of the ghetto hotels near the CEC!!
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Old 05-26-2011 | 06:43 PM
  #149  
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PCLCAPT, true, but they did start paying from day 1 in 2007. We got $400 per week in training, plus hotel. This was back in their really desperate days. $750 bonus for completing OE, and $500 bonus if you stayed 6 months as a longevity bonus.
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Old 05-26-2011 | 06:53 PM
  #150  
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Assuming, for the sake of argument, that we are supposed to use our sim date as our DOH. I have yet to hear one person explain how that is workable in the SLI process since you had junior people finishing their checkride first and thus being 'hired' ahead of people senior to them. ALPA merger policy clearly states that people cannot jump ahead of people senior to them in the completed SLI award. You would have a complete reordering of the 9E seniority list under this scenario. The only logical way to get around this is to create an adjustment that puts all people on even footing within each newhire class. The most logical way to do this is to use the start of class, which is an industry standard practice and as supported by the JCBA and subsequent LOA. The list that Pinnacle submitted at the start of negotiations had these adjusted dates. Mesaba and Colgan has almost half a year to contest this adjustment and yet only choose to do this at the very past second. Yes pinnacle Corp may have botched a few people here or there because they were given no time to prepare the list, and I am all for correcting those errors. But you cannot argue that we have to use our original sim DOH is inane and completely unworkable.
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