And if major airlines actually hired people and had not cut benefits and wages drastically over the last 20 years, this would make sense.

 

Are you honestly trying to claim the Majors haven't hired for 20 years?

 

Nope, I'm honestly trying to claim that the job has gotten worse and worse for 20+ years, and they aren't hiring in any kind of numbers to give any significant chance of making "paying dues" pay off. No one wants anything for free or feels that they "deserve" it, but if you have 20,000 people and 100 jobs (extreme example), it's not because they don't want to "pay their dues". It's that they aren't stupid.

 

I had to have 3,000 TT and 1,000 MEL before I could get my first King Air job. After the 1,000 piston MEL (night freight) it was relatively easy to progress into turbro-props and multiple corporate jets.

When I got hired at an airline, I had 12 years of part 91 and 135 work, 5 corporate jet type ratings and 7,000 TT - around 3,000 Jet PIC. Seemed reasonable at the time. I guess, in full disclosure, I was hired to be a Captain within 3 to 5 months - and was.

I think the ATP and at least 500 multi is not too much to ask.

 

Pilots.

But I'm sure due to our wonderful products and customer service we are looked down on as far as that aspect. But I don't know for sure.
We do have a very safe system in the US but aside from that we are subpar in almost everything.
What other Major airline worldwide is operating DC9s?
On average the US major airlines or legacy carriers must have some of the oldest fleets in the world.

 

Guess you have not flown in South America or many parts of Asia or Eastern Europe.

 

isn't that backwards...

 

Pay their dues... This phrase comes up so much. How about using the term gain experience.

I do not agree with a petition, BUT I do not totally agree with the new ATP rule by any means. But it does have its pro's.

You can call me the brat that went to the Academy and didn't pay for my training all you want. Reason being is because you don't know MY story.

The thing is which I think is a hamper on us low-timers is due to the fact of lack of entry level positions in this industry.

There are countless amounts of individuals that went the traditional route of getting their CFI shortly after getting their commercial licenses. Why? To gain experience. But honestly, as a CFI, II, MEI. You're just learning the BASICS to flying in the aviation world. Your repeating the same things OVER and OVER again. Yes, you ARE getting experience, but for crying out loud most aviation schools are in the south in sunny Florida. Try flying into Fargo or the New England states in the dead of winter with winds howling and snow blowing. We learn about icing and the causes and effects of it, but we don't ever fly through it. We get our instrument rating with barely flying a lick of actual instrument. When do we learn this? When we start flying into the real world of aviation.

My question is, how much "real world" experience are you getting with doing these constant flight school maneuvers over and over again? Especially while doing them in the atmosphere these CFI's are training their students. The only time I couldn't fly was because of the winds in Florida. Other than that I think my time at the academy I cancelled a total of 5 times due to WX.

My other gripe is the fact that a good 90-95% of the people in this industry think we must go the CFI route in order to gain those precious hours.

Aside from being a banner tower, pipeline control, and jump pilot (such as myself) there aren't many other options to get those hours. There is a lack of entry level positions to get into this industry and not everybody is meant to be a teacher in life.

I personally think I've gained more experience in my 182 flying jumpers out with 4 people hanging off the wing then If I were instructing somebody on how to accomplish steep turns. I push my aircraft to the limit everyday, and I've learned something new everyday.

People see things so black and white and have no regard for the big picture for us little guys trying to get into the game still. I think they could cut a little slack for the folks trying to get in the regionals. 1500 hours plus an ATP is like expecting me to fly straight like an arrow the first time I fly an RJ. It's not going to happen.

I will put in my time, I have no problem with that. I don't expect to be on top right away . But the road to get to the top is extremely narrow due to lack of options. I think a 500TT Req would suffice, If I didn't have my entry level job, I'd still have to find one, but the process wouldn't be so grueling and I would still have experience under my belt. I hope folks can read understand the argument with valid facts that are being made in this post. G'day

 

Dude nothing bratty about being selected to go to Colorado Springs. I admire anyone who serves the country and attended the Academy!

 

People that go the military route will "pay their dues" in spades - both through effort put into training, passing that training while being held to extremely high standards (you can't buy your way through the training), and then putting that training to use for many years in many a clime and place. Just a piece of advice - but like our former discussion on the Ace part of your username - best not to be referring to yourself as the guy that "went to the Academy" before ever making it there. It might not make a big difference to you now, but if you hope to go that route in the future, you will want to start realizing the downfalls of certain views before actually getting into that environment. I doubt that USAF is that much different than the other services when it comes to counting your eggs before they hatch.

You make a good point about the lack of entry level jobs. It does seem to be getting harder and harder to find that low time entry level position. Maybe in the end that will make what is called a "barrier to entry". That is a pain for the guys that don't stick it out and ends up being a blessing for the ones who do.

As for the benefits to CFI'ing, I can agree with you because I never wanted to be a CFI when I had just received my ratings, but you also don't know what you don't know about the benefits of being an instructor. Whether it be in the military or in the civilian world of flying, being an instructor or evaluator is viewed as highly prized experience. There is a reason for that and it comes in many forms. CFI;'ing was suppose to be the beginners level experience to build time for those other experience building jobs which hopefully led to the ever challenging night freight operation or air ambulance job for example. Now you're talking the whole enchilada. The weather, the PIC duties, the aircraft issues, the flying at all hours of the day and night, the pressure of getting the job done...etc.
THEN you are ready to move onto those regionals to get your P-121 experience.

I probably have a biased view of what you mean by operating at the airplane at its' limits I grant you, but looking back at my short time as a jump pilot, I'm not sure that I could have said that myself. YES! I agree. Try flying into Fargo ND in the freezing rain with the wind howling - AND NOT with a load of paying passengers behind you the first time. If you want to beat on doing the "same thing OVER and OVER again" then look no further than your current job Ace. In my aviation career I can't remember a time that I did the same thing over and over more so than when I flew load after load of jumpers. Talk about repetition!

You say that you have got more experience from having 4 jumpers on your wing than you would have got if you were a CFI doing the steep turns. Well.....consider a few other things. First - you aren't instructing, which I have already explained to you is a boon of both experience and a resume builder. Second...and I only have two types on my license and one recurrent under my belt, but I talk a lot to other professional pilots and I've never heard of having 4 people hanging on your wing as part of the administered type rating requirements, but steep turns has been on every checkride I've had since getting out of the military and in a strange. more unconventional manner was even a part of most rides in the military too. So in which situation are you gaining more valuable experience that you might take forward into your blooming professional aviation career?

You say:"People see things so black and white and have no regard for the big picture for us little guys trying to get into the game still. I think they could cut a little slack for the folks trying to get in the regionals."
Some pilots have forgotten their roots Ace. Some have forgotten what it was like to be a low time pilot struggling for hours and what it meant to get those first few multi hours in the logbook. They need a refresher for sure. Others remember it all too well and have at least walked in your very shoes, some in the not too distant past, where as you have never stood in their shoes. Maybe you are the one seeing it in shades of black and white (being what is best for Ace at this date and time) and have not lost sight of the BIG PICTURE, but have yet to even glimpse the bigger picture.

You're in a good spot right now I think. You have a job, some interesting flying which will lose some of the *fun* after the shine has worn off, but you're making money and building experience as you said. My advice to the old me sitting in your situation would be to constantly be on the lookout for the next flying opportunity that afforded more variety in flying - especially anything along the lines that got you out of the local area, gives you opportunity to put that IFR rating to some actual use, experience different classes of airspace and increased your exposure to ATC, and even possibly instruct some amount of time (which may provide you with all areas mentioned).

Good luck and keep sharing your stories of you current experience. It is nice to see enthusiasm from a new guy when the forum is so full of the tired and struggling. A bit of color among the drab.

USMCFLYR