Yeah, but you had free health care, ability to take college classes at 1/4th tuition, all sorts of services that a regional pilot would only dream of. I don't think it's the same thing in any case. I nearly went back into the military when I got a call for commercial flying, but if I had, with 4 years of prior experience, all the flight and hazard pay, I would have been banking money compared to a regional airline pilot...about 2x as much, not to mention you get free housing at first too

 

I think the only solution is the formation of a new union that represents no one but regional pilots, call it the RPA or something...look at the unions out there..with the only exception being the SWPA (Skywest) not a single regional pilot group is represented by an association whose focus is regional pilots...neither the teamsters or ALPA solely exist to support and represent the unique interests of regional pilots.

If I hit the mega-millions Ill start one for you fellas...

 

I guess I have some rose colored glasses because I've been fortunate enough to interact with other professionals in various fields throughout my short career and hearing their take on life/success/careers has shaped my mindset.

Being gone from friends family etc (You're a pilot, did you expect something different when you signed up?) is not exclusive to the aviation industry at all. Software/hardware techs often fly out Sunday evening, get home late Friday night, repeat. A large percentage of any type of engineer works 10-14 hour days 5-6 days a week (sister in law started at 58k out of school for EE and hasn't cracked 70k yet after 3ish years, isn't expecting to ever break more than 100k or so with a degree and MBA). True big money guys, bankers and surgeons/doctors spend far far more in school than you can dream of, work way longer days than you can dream of, and their respective fields are far more competitive than you can dream of. Don't see many people in here lasting the first 2-3 years of an IB career making 75k+ bonus living in NYC working 20 hour days 6 days a week punching numbers into spreadsheets (after you've graduated in the top 5% of your top tier business school). Or surviving the better part of a decade med school lasts + specialty work, being 250-500k in school loan debt and making 50-70k as a resident for almost as long.

Aviation definitely has one of the highest per capita "special flower" groups I've encountered. The most level-headed guys i've come across were career changers who have worked for a long while at something else and then realized how relatively simple this career is.

$85k starting as an FO is laughable. $40k, sure, that's reasonable. Never understood the people who structured their lives in a way that starting their career wouldn't even be feasible. Gotta think long term gents.

It's great to be optimistic and wanting to change the career for the better. I genuinely believe, despite union concessionary voting statistics, that every pilot/person in this field wants things to get better. Reality comes crashing down though. Your hope for a better future doesn't make you paying your bills or being unhappy about your current situation any different. It's all a mindset, accepting the present, but working towards a more optimistic future. Remember, the average annual household income in the US is 50k. There are a lot of mid 20's FOs doing better than the average citizen in this country. Keeps things in perspective.

(fyi my last paycheck was $595 after tax)

 

Agree with MUCH of your post Ar Pilot - especially the *special* group status. In a recent thread I poked fun at a guy who was complaining about ONLY getting 2 days off a week. I mentioned that to many in the world - that is all many worlkers EVER get off. They of course counter with the 'but I'm on the road 3 nights a week' reasoning - which has merit - BUT it is like they think they are the ONLY WORK GROUP that travels.

Then you mention "Being gone from friends family etc (You're a pilot, did you expect something different when you signed up?)" I've said the same thing many times over. The push back you'll often get is from those who came right into the aviation industry and had misconceptions about the lifestyles I guess. Again, I recently compared it to the person joining the military and then surprised that they have to deploy.

As far as pay, I am of the opinion that it is the disparity in pay that should be controlled more; as someone else recently said, starting pay going UP and top end pay coming down; but try convincing that to the top end earners who worked their way into that bracket. It is a tough sell.

In any case - thank for the thoughts.

 

Hmm, should I add any opinion that is basically irrelevant?
The wages are how free market capitalism works.(most pilots I know are big supporters of the free market,yet are vehemently opposed to how it plays out in the airline business..go figure)
The only way to modify this is a union which essentially mitigates the laws of supply/demand, or some sort of regulatory way of putting a floor on wages/compensation.Unfortunately our unions are fractured and only work from airline to airline. Since the members have to start over (and over and over again) "standing up" against exploitation only insures that you will be the first to get shot.
Examples:1. ComAir..strike, great contract...left to die on the vine and then liquidated.
2. Midwest...One of the best paid narrow body contracts that topped NWA, United,USAir,AWA etc.
First sold to leveraged buyout/hedge fund allied with Northwest, downsized dramatically and the final shell sold to Republic then outsourced and liquidated. (Union leadership had said "NO" to flying the 717's and MD 80s for less than half the contract rates.)
3.The original Air Wisconsin...bought by UAL, then liquidated and the aircraft distributed amongst other cheaper wage carriers (one of which was the newly formed Air Wisconsin Airline Corp). The original AirWis had the highest paid commuter/regional pilots in the industry...this was not something that could be allowed to continue, ergo: kill it.
Any way, you get the idea.
Either we need a union (which means its members) that will procur a national senority list which assures a pilot of not losing everything and having to start over from scratch if his company is replaced by a cheaper product, ( a safety net for fighting exploitation) or at least a national contract that EVERY airline has to abide by. We could also have some sort of fiat similar to what Bob Crandall proposed back in the 80's as to a minimum standard that any certified carrier had to meet.(short of a revolution, that aint gonna happen)

Anyway... if one favors free market capitalism and the concept of letting a business do whatever it considers advantageous, then one is a supporter of:
Low wages(for labor...not senior Mgmt)
Minimal benefits(for labor)
Outsourcing(to the cheapest possible labor)
Externalizing as much cost as possible to the public

As Pogo said, "we have met the enemy and he is us"

 

Good post. My biggest problem with the airlines is the seniority system, which trumps experience. Seeing seasoned guys with thousands of hours in the left seat having to start at the bottom on poverty wages all over again is just wrong. I always thought year 1 F.O. pay is low for a reason, that is the airline is giving you that leg up from the G.A world and spending big money training / typing you. But that should be a one time event in the career of an airline pilot. If this issue was addressed by the almighty unions I would agree that we should take the bad with the good on the other issues. Just too tough of a pill for me to swallow which is why I am hanging out at a 135 outfit until things really pick up at the majors.

 

Actually it's quiet simple and it doesn't involve national seniority list or other pie in the sky ideas. If you get the various MEC's to agree on some realistic target pay rates for regional aircraft sort of like the NBAA does for business aircraft. There needs to be better coordination and communication between groups this is key. First we need to recognize we are all competitors so the goal here is not to hold hands and sing it is to level out the playing field so pilot compensation is not the difference between winning and losing contracts. Sure some will be better than others but there needs to be some kind of benchmark for what a 76 seat jet should pay. Many will say "yeah but then they'll just start up a new regional blah blah..." Well if the regional equivalent of Skybus comes along you single them out and strongly encourage pilots not to seek employment there. This is not a hopeless Endeavor (see what I did there) just look at the effect the teamsters have had on Republic's ability to recruit pilots even though they won't admit it and that's only one union. Now imagine an inter-regional trade group of 15,000+ pilots stongly encouraging all their friends not to accept employment at XYZ regional. Management likes to target the top tier airlines in compensation (Comair, etc.) so we need to counter by targeting the bottom tier. This is not a pipe dream if there was ever a moment in history when this could work it is now. As long as the mission is clear and simple. Perhaps we could flesh out this idea some more and put it on kickstarter? I don't work for a regional but I would gladly donate $$$ if someone picked up the ball and ran with it. But again we are talking about an industry trade group not a union.

 

Huh? I haven't heard RAH has had trouble filling classes on anything other than Qs.

 

If that's true than why do they have to keep offering a $5,000 bribe just to get people to sign up?

 

Well said! And I see what you did there