Gofish

Really? I would rather that management be very afraid of us and never meddle with us like this again. You will note that I left resignation as an option. The decision to use any one of these weapons is based on the individual.

Volunteer for the Union? We cannot even have discussions with other pilot groups, who are represented outside of group, without the permission of Mr. Moak. Organizing a strike is illegal.

We will be professionals when we can leverage our abilities to achieve the compensation that they deserve. I would use, and have, and will continue to use any and all of these tools, up to an including but not limited to resignation, in order to see my profession restored to the dignity that it deserves and to light management's straw man on fire. You are right, I won't be an airline pilot forever. If the PSA TA passes, my resignation letter is already written.

Diplomacy is well and good. The opportunity for management, including ALPA National, to treat us like human beings is long gone.

No fear! Nov 26.

AtlCSIP

From an independent source: A professional is someone who has completed formal education and training in one or more profession. The term also describes the standards of education and training that prepare members of the profession with the particular knowledge and skills necessary to perform the role of that profession. In addition, most professionals are subject to strict codes of conduct enshrining rigorous ethical and moral obligations. Professional standards of practice and ethics for a particular field are typically agreed upon and maintained through widely recognized professional associations.

I never once saw the term "leverage" or "fear" in that definition. We obvio isla have a difference of opinion. Good luck with your method.

Gofish

The terms leverage and fear are uniquely familiar to me. Good luck with yours.

DC8DRIVER

Not to say that two "wrongs" make a "right" but what are professional pilots to do if they adhere to the definition and airline management does not?

The value of the pilot profession is being flushed down the tubes these days by regional airline management (and many majors, ACMIs, charters, etc., too) in hot pursuit of lower operating costs and greater profits. The problem, however, does not rest with what pilots are being paid, but with what passengers are being charged. In theory, pilots could fly for free and airlines would simply drop their fares in competition with one another until they were at the same razor thin margins that they are today. Then who would they blame?

Pilots are not the problem.

Taking back the profession "professionally" starts with the pilot groups that are in negotiations or are about to sign a contract right now.

Stand up and stand strong for your profession.

Refuse to vote for anything but a quantum leap forward in your contract. There has been no better time to do this, maybe ever. Airlines don't offer $5000 signing bonuses and classes typically never go completely unfilled in times of pilot surpluses. We have the upper hand and it is time to take advantage of the supply vs demand market we have.

Look as far ahead as you possibly can into your future and the future of your chosen profession and determine what is right for you and do not base your decision on todays immediate wants. The professional pilot industry was, at one point, something to be admired because of the courageous determination of early airline pilots who stood up and faced their employers and demanded professional wages for professional work.

We have lost this ability, to a large extent, in recent times. It is time to take it back.

It is possible to make the any airline a career destination that has livable wages you can be proud of.

You may have to work for it, however.

8

AtlCSIP

I agree with working hard to make this a better profession. I don't agree with dishonest behavior, regardless of what management, or anyone else, is doing. Wrong is wrong.

Gofish

There is noting illegal about resignation. Nothing illegal about being sick or tired (this includes mental anguish) and nothing illegal about being disabled.

Nov 26th

you have the floor.

AtlCSIP

I never said there was. I said dishonesty was wrong.

skyhigh127

Thanks for the comments and opinions. I really liked those of RJ2Driver, DC8 Driver and 200 Driver. I would like to respond to a
couple of opinions and points made below:



1. First of all - I want to say that making one pilot group is
very do-able.All you have to do is the following:


a. Demand a Fair wage for:

- University Graduate = 45,000 for 2013 average

- Additional Schooling = 25,000(when you complete additional schooling
above college such as medical school, dental
school, law school, accounting or flight school)

- Extensive Travel time = 15,000


This adds up to a grand total of 85,000 $ for a First Year First Officer / Or 115,000 $ For a First Year Captain (85,000 FO Pay plus 30,000 for industry upgrade)


b. Demand a Just Number of Days of:

- 15 days off per 30 day month / 16 days off per 31 day month


c. Then after you have decided Yes to both A and B (Pay and Days off), come together as a group and form One Pilot Group in which to implement these new "Starting Standard Minimums for All Flight Crews"



I Truly Believe all Pilots both "Want" and "Deserve" these things. I also want you say that:


a. These are not a wish list of items, they are things that we as pilots deserve by:

- Going to the University

- Going to Flight School

- Instructing for Many Years

- Flying Commercial Passenger Aircraft For many Years

- Being Away from our Families for up to 2-3 weeks away from Home

- Spending Countless Years and Hundreds of Thousands of Dollars on
Schooling and Living Expenses in order to be Able to Start at Day one
while only making 9 dollars an hour and about 12 cents per passenger
per flight hour,all while being away from home for 2 to up to 3 weeks
per month, while flying most if not all weekends and holidays of the year
for one to many years !


b. That there would be no chance of getting undercut by a startup airline
company such as suggested in this thread.Why is this so?
It is because:


- No single startup company could ever cover all or even come close
to covering all of the flying here in the United States as that of a group
of a 15 Plus - Combined Regional Airline Group in which we are going to
try to come up with !

- With the Formation of this "Single Regional Pilot Group" and it's
benefits, who would want to go to any other place?

- Even if there were pilots that would want to go to a startup regional
that paid and treated them poorly, it would be very hard to find these
pilots in this great time of the "Present and Coming Pilot Shortage" !


Here are some of the factors of the pilot shortage both present to future

a. Mass Retirees - as the age 65 rule started to kick in last december

b. Mass Hirings - that are starting up slowly as we speak
(American 1500 pilots, Us Airways, Delta, United, etc)

c. 1500 - ATP Rule that just went into effect this August

d. New Rest Rules in January

e. Fewer Military Pilots joining the airlines as they are being more retained

f. Pilots that are going overseas for better pay and benefits

g. Lack of student loans being given - (defaults,low starting salary, etc)

h. Small number of ATP graduates (This last year aprox 170 Plus)

i. Flight Schools - many that are closed or at low capacity and
some surviving mostly by foreign students for
cheaper training.

Toonces

I guess I'm about to be "that guy." That payscale for a first year FO is ridiculous. Seriously. I didn't make that as a military pilot until I was well into my 8th year, and only because I lived in a high cost of living area. Our FO equivalent, the 2nd pilot, is really nothing more than deadweight for their 1st year or so, but it's a rapid learning curve and their usefulness increases rapidly. I strongly support probation pay as well as frequent progress reviews for first years, and after that, let the floodgates open. But not too much - there's alot to be said for having the responsibility solely on your shoulders.

Dial back captain pay, increase FO pay, and raise pay across the board for all regional airlines. There needs to be a LIVING wage, and it needs to be managed for all employees in accordance with good business practices. However, you cannot expect ONE pilot group to be able to fix this, it's just bad business.

NoLightOff

The only thread worth reading. Although almost just a fairy tale in this country, livable wages are a possibility and we all have the right to demand for them. We all may have different opinions on what to do about it but we are all in agreement that it's far from where in needs to be. Unify, organize and you'll get what you want. FO wages are surely the biggest issue. If they weren't so bad it would just be easy to quit and start over somewhere else that treats you better.