A person with a PPL can fly a C-172 not only does ATP believe / know this so does the FAA.

-LAFF

I think paying for a revenue job is almost as f&cked up as at gets. My prioritized list of scumbags, starting with the worst...


1) SCABS. Actual picket-line crossers. This is more for historical purposes... there are no recent scabs because the courts will no longer allow airlines to strike!

2) Alter-ego pilots (Gojets, Freedom A, etc). Deciding between 2 and 3 was a tough call, but an alter-ego pilot had to INTENTIONALLY select another specific pilot group to undercut. The gojetter KNOWS that he is going to screw TSA pilots, and eagerly rushes forward to seize the opportunity to capitalize on another pilot's situation. There is no excuse or defense for alter-ego turds.

3) Pay-for-seat pilots (GIA, AMFlight, etc). These guys are also pretty bad because they are paying for the "privelege" of doing revenue work that another, more qualified pilot should be getting PAID to do. The only possible excuse for this MIGHT be gross ignorance and stupidity, but come on! Would you be stupid enough to pay for a revenue job in another industry??? While pilot jobs are being stolen here (by bribery), the jobs in question are not coming directly from another specific pilot group.

4) Pay-for-training (MAPD, etc) . People who buy a low-time airline job. Ignorance and flight-school marketing is often the culprit here.

Personally, I will aggressively and mercilessly strive to deny jumpseats and jobs to categories 1) - 3). Category 4) has to stand in line behind people who built their hours the hard ways.

This is your response??? Yeah, look where it has gotten us now. Those PFT people may have moved on to better things but look at the mess they have left behind. This industry WILL become the cliche that everyone jokes about if others are not educated about the damage that is done to the profession by PFT. It should be called "Pay For Job."

Rickair,

You normally have some pretty good posts, however I think you might be outta line when you mention Ameriflight as pilots that pay-for-seat as 99.99999999999999999% of pilots there never did that.

MAPD isn't a pay-for-training scheme. It's no different then going the aviation college route with a bonus (an interview) at the end. Saying you have a problem with them is saying you have a problem with every ERAU, Purdue, DWC, FIT, UND, etc grad (which you may well have a problem with apparently). Pay for training is more like handing a check to the airline once you "successfully" interview. The only 121 airline that does that today, I believe, is Gulfstream.

So you feel it's better to lie to these folks, then when they find out that PFT people HAVE moved on, will they believe us saying "PFT is the devil" or will they think that we are the boy who cried wolf?

So let me get this straight. . .

By telling people who are presently in the PFJ/PFT environment that others (over two decades ago) have moved on to bigger and better things. . . that what they are doing TODAY is okay?

It was wrong then. . . and it is still wrong today.

I'm not saying it's OK (where did I say that??? Please provide a link); I'm just saying don't lie to folks and tell them "people don't move on". When they find someone who did it (either back in the day or recently such as GIA) they will know we have lied. Then they will also think that we are lying about it being bad for the industry. Make sense?

Why not say "yeah you can go pay for your flight time this way. Some people have done it in the past. However, there might be better ways to do it..." and start in with your arguments against it.

I don't get #4...Do you include aviation schools , ATP, accelerated flight training in that group?

I don't see a problem with going to ATP the being a CFI for them to get the hiring mins the 121 regionals are looking for. If the mins are 600 TT/100 ME - I would be the first to apply. I don't want to until I have at least 1000 TT / 250 ME. However, I'd be placing myself at a disadvantage by not getting a seniority number sooner. Maybe its the seniority system that needs to be changed?

I don't know...I'm looking for answers.

Thanks,
LAFF

How is that an insult to your intelligence when that EXACTLY what it is? I paid the quoted price, up front, and not $1 more. Is it the cheapest school out there? No, but at 35, I valued my time more than the other choices out there, and it's significantly cheaper than Pan Am, Flight Safety, and DCA. But you could also save money by go to Ari-Ben or you local FBO, etc. I just wanted to get finished with my ratings fast and start building time as a CFI.

What, exactly is shady. They train you to fly a seminole. Then they train you to get your instrument rating. Then they send you on cross country flights to build time. Then they train you to get your commercial rating. Then they train you to get your CFI ratings. oooooo, shady. :rolleyes:

LOL!!!! That's the dumbest statement I've ever read. What exactly are "the airline procedures"???? And what exactly is it about these so called procedures that makes them taboo to train to a PPL? They train you to fly all aircraft as a professional, using checklists, following procedures, etc. The training I received there was heads and shoulders better than what I received at the local FBO.

However, individual experiences vary. For anyone reading this thread and wondering about flight school choice. ATP isn't perfect. It relies heavily on self-study, so you get out of it what you're willing to put into it. Further, all the instructors are, well, different people. So while I got lucky and had some fantastic instruction, you could go there and not be so impressed with the instructor you get. However, if it becomes a real problem, you can get reassigned. Overall, I thing ATP is a very good school, that doesn't falsely advertise promises of a job. They only promise you the ratings at the stated price in the stated time-frame, and on that promise they deliver.

Keep in mind when you talk on the phone to ATP's 800 number, you're talking to a student who just finished the program and has been hired, but not placed in a location yet. That can be good, in that they can tell you first hand what it's like to go through the program. And it can be bad, in that they may be an idiot!

Again, exactly HOW are they shady? On what exactly do you base this ridiculous opinion?