What would it take to bring you back?
03-04-2014, 07:49 PM
#81
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 781
Agreed, 50K should be the absolute bloody minimum for flying a turbine aircraft full of people in almost all weather.
2,500 hours, fresh pilot, fresh ATP, turbine experience.
I moved on after they weren't hiring and I couldn't get interviews when I reached the magic numbers. I have regrets about what equipment I fly, but my lifestyle is much better and I'm compensated well. I'd like to go to the airlines, but:
6. Unions gone. No more crooked racketeering, no more buyouts to help send the career to the bottom, no more union dues, nothing.
7. The ability to strike and walk the **** out. Anyone who does not like their job should be able to walk away from it at any time, even en masse.
2,500 hours, fresh pilot, fresh ATP, turbine experience.
I moved on after they weren't hiring and I couldn't get interviews when I reached the magic numbers. I have regrets about what equipment I fly, but my lifestyle is much better and I'm compensated well. I'd like to go to the airlines, but:
6. Unions gone. No more crooked racketeering, no more buyouts to help send the career to the bottom, no more union dues, nothing.
7. The ability to strike and walk the **** out. Anyone who does not like their job should be able to walk away from it at any time, even en masse.
Unions are a necessary evil in the airlines. Just ask JetBlue.
03-05-2014, 12:47 AM
#82
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2009
Posts: 604
5600TT, 2200 Turbine FW (jets&props), 2600 Turbine RW. Part 121 & Mil.
Right now, I get to fly FW & RW and enjoy the heck out of both.
I left when age 65 and the economy dropped out, so no upgrade & free ATP ride. Ugh, just ~30 numbers from upgrade, eh oh well..
I went full time Guard and doubled my pay in one day - AND I was home.
Deployments do happen every 4 years-ish, and suck a little bit but they are rewarding none the less.
I wouldn't go back to the regionals unless it was the absolute last option.
The company I worked for was fine. I had a Great base manager and any problems I had were dealt with.
The industry is the problem. I will not offer my services for less than they are worth. Too many other options.
There is no pilot shortage. Just a shortage of qualified pilots willing to work for nothing.
Other than the pay, my biggest problem was systemic in the industry. Mediocrity was accepted:
-It was ok to sell 54 seats on a 50 seat jet
-TSA
-Southwest pushes a plane early to block the ramp so we are late and multiple pax miss their connections -> 'Hey, its just business.'
-Multiple days, Arrive at a gate early, no rampers so we sit for 20 minutes till halftime, now we're late
-5, FIVE calls and 2 ACARS messages to OPs for a wheelchair and nothing. 45 minutes after the first notification one arrives. That was my personal low point. Passengers should pay more, yes, but I am uncomfortable with not taking care of the people you are entrusted with.
The list goes on...
Yeah, 'Never' is a strong word, but I'm very close to it.
Right now, I get to fly FW & RW and enjoy the heck out of both.
I left when age 65 and the economy dropped out, so no upgrade & free ATP ride. Ugh, just ~30 numbers from upgrade, eh oh well..
I went full time Guard and doubled my pay in one day - AND I was home.
Deployments do happen every 4 years-ish, and suck a little bit but they are rewarding none the less.
I wouldn't go back to the regionals unless it was the absolute last option.
The company I worked for was fine. I had a Great base manager and any problems I had were dealt with.
The industry is the problem. I will not offer my services for less than they are worth. Too many other options.
There is no pilot shortage. Just a shortage of qualified pilots willing to work for nothing.
Other than the pay, my biggest problem was systemic in the industry. Mediocrity was accepted:
-It was ok to sell 54 seats on a 50 seat jet
-TSA
-Southwest pushes a plane early to block the ramp so we are late and multiple pax miss their connections -> 'Hey, its just business.'
-Multiple days, Arrive at a gate early, no rampers so we sit for 20 minutes till halftime, now we're late
-5, FIVE calls and 2 ACARS messages to OPs for a wheelchair and nothing. 45 minutes after the first notification one arrives. That was my personal low point. Passengers should pay more, yes, but I am uncomfortable with not taking care of the people you are entrusted with.
The list goes on...
Yeah, 'Never' is a strong word, but I'm very close to it.
03-05-2014, 02:51 AM
#83
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: G650 Captain
Posts: 125
ATP and 2 PIC type ratings
14,500 hours
8,500 jet PIC
Flying corporate overseas making as much as a 20 year wide body Delta captain. I fly about 100 days and log about 250 hours a year.
The system is broken and has been for years. I should be paid at least as much as a plumber per hour which means a six figure income. I totally agree with one of the previous responses about not basing pay on the seats in the airplane. My experience should be compensated for with money and not by sticking me on first year pay. A national list would be a good start. Doctors, lawyers, accountants and other white color workers don't start over at apprentice pay when switching places of employment and neither should I.
I might come back one day but I'm having way too much fun for now.
Cheers...
14,500 hours
8,500 jet PIC
Flying corporate overseas making as much as a 20 year wide body Delta captain. I fly about 100 days and log about 250 hours a year.
The system is broken and has been for years. I should be paid at least as much as a plumber per hour which means a six figure income. I totally agree with one of the previous responses about not basing pay on the seats in the airplane. My experience should be compensated for with money and not by sticking me on first year pay. A national list would be a good start. Doctors, lawyers, accountants and other white color workers don't start over at apprentice pay when switching places of employment and neither should I.
I might come back one day but I'm having way too much fun for now.
Cheers...
03-05-2014, 03:16 AM
#84
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Home with my family playing with my daughter as much as possible
Posts: 591
What would it take to bring you back?
With all this talk of pilot shortage, this would be a great sticky for the public to see. Any chance Mods?
03-05-2014, 04:26 AM
#85
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2011
Position: Left seat
Posts: 273
I have come to the assumption that there are two types of pilot groups, the somewhat older mature pilots with families to support,like myself who cannot and will not accept the lower pay. Then you have the younger twenty something pilots with no families probably living with mom and dad and limited bills to pay. These are the people who will continue to accept these lower paying jobs, albiet in lower numbers than the past, but still out there. Why?, because they have nothing to loose and it's better than flight instructing some wierd foreigner trying to kill them.
03-05-2014, 05:32 AM
#87
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2008
Position: Upright
Posts: 605
5000TT
4300 Multi
4500 XC
3700 Turbine in four type aircraft. One type rating.
300 IMC
Turned down by a regional in 2010 with those times.
It's got nothing to do with not willing. Like everyone already knows, I can't support my family flying airplanes unless I got on with a LLC / Major / Legacy. Lack of currency and turbine PIC would likely prevent that, so I'll stay here until a recall comes, then I'll have another career choice to make.
The 65K I make here with a good 401K match, hanging out with my son every day, 4 weeks PTO / year along with what I have already banked, paid holidays.... You get the picture. The grass isn't always greener outside of flying, but it certainly doesn't get any worse.
03-05-2014, 05:46 AM
#88
Need More Flight Time!
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Flight Simulator X
Posts: 400
03-05-2014, 05:56 AM
#89
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 384
I have come to the assumption that there are two types of pilot groups, the somewhat older mature pilots with families to support,like myself who cannot and will not accept the lower pay. Then you have the younger twenty something pilots with no families probably living with mom and dad and limited bills to pay. These are the people who will continue to accept these lower paying jobs, albiet in lower numbers than the past, but still out there. Why?, because they have nothing to loose and it's better than flight instructing some wierd foreigner trying to kill them.
03-05-2014, 06:08 AM
#90
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Sponsorship
Modern airline careers need sponsorship.
Perhaps we are not looking at the situation in the correct manner? I have a buddy whose wife is an orthodontist so he does not care about pay so much. He could work for free if needed and is contemplating closing his business to pursue his childish folly. Seems to me that modern airline careers are becoming a sponsored hobby for most.
I remember when I was at a regional they would occasionally hire a 55 year old guy who had retired from a stable career of some kind and wanted to blow his last five years as a regional FO. I have another buddy whose wife supports them as a veterinarian so he can fly. These guys tend to be happier at their under performing hobby careers. Seems to me that the secret to success in part 121 is to figure out a way to turn this lousy career into a fun hobby. Try to inherit a lot of money so you don't have to worry about having to earn a living as a pilot. Marry someone who can amply support you both and there will be less friction at home. Win the lottery so that you don't have to share a crash pad with 8 other guys. In my case I have a large family to support and I could not abandon them to the folly of aviation unless the financial return was considerable. However I believe that in time I could be in a position where my kids mostly grown and our financial needs secured. I could then sponsor myself to go back into flying in some capacity. Under those conditions who cares what the job is so long as it is flexible enough to meet the fickle needs of a enthusiast.
In many regards I believe that this is where professional aviation is leading us. In order for modern aviation to avoid becoming a self destructive endeavor that contaminates ones chances at having a real life the pilot need to come to ground school with sponsorship in place. Relieve aviation from the obligation of providing financial support. Turn it into the working hobby it really is and things will go much better.
Skyhigh
Perhaps we are not looking at the situation in the correct manner? I have a buddy whose wife is an orthodontist so he does not care about pay so much. He could work for free if needed and is contemplating closing his business to pursue his childish folly. Seems to me that modern airline careers are becoming a sponsored hobby for most.
I remember when I was at a regional they would occasionally hire a 55 year old guy who had retired from a stable career of some kind and wanted to blow his last five years as a regional FO. I have another buddy whose wife supports them as a veterinarian so he can fly. These guys tend to be happier at their under performing hobby careers. Seems to me that the secret to success in part 121 is to figure out a way to turn this lousy career into a fun hobby. Try to inherit a lot of money so you don't have to worry about having to earn a living as a pilot. Marry someone who can amply support you both and there will be less friction at home. Win the lottery so that you don't have to share a crash pad with 8 other guys. In my case I have a large family to support and I could not abandon them to the folly of aviation unless the financial return was considerable. However I believe that in time I could be in a position where my kids mostly grown and our financial needs secured. I could then sponsor myself to go back into flying in some capacity. Under those conditions who cares what the job is so long as it is flexible enough to meet the fickle needs of a enthusiast.
In many regards I believe that this is where professional aviation is leading us. In order for modern aviation to avoid becoming a self destructive endeavor that contaminates ones chances at having a real life the pilot need to come to ground school with sponsorship in place. Relieve aviation from the obligation of providing financial support. Turn it into the working hobby it really is and things will go much better.
Skyhigh
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