Are you serious? AA already has some of the biggest a-holes I've ever known. I avoid that jumpseat like the plague.

 

We have 220 airplanes and 2600 pilots. With the upcoming hiring, by the time they shut it down, they already will be flush to the gills at aa with eagle guys. That is not what this is over.

IMHO this is about getting one of the big 5 to buckle outside of ch11. They can get the others. Rah, egl, skyw, xjt, and endv make up over 13,000 regional pilots. That's a massive part of the pie, I'd guess 80%+, in the grand scheme the psa and gojetz don't matter. If the big 5 pattern bargain gains over losses, esp soft pay that kills productivity, that kills management.

 

First off. Thank you to the Envoy group for standing up for the profession. We have a good thing going here. Rejecting these ridiculous offers from management shows that we as pilots are realizing that no matter who you work for or what kind of aircraft you fly, you are still a freaking pilot. A pilot that made sacrifices and dedicated his life to his career who is worth waaaayyyy more than they give him credit for. For that they can eat a turd.

Now for the hard work. Failed TA's across the board sends a message. However, this message means nothing if we don't act on it. Envoy management offers a crap contract. It was obviously going to fail. They figure if it fails they can threaten the pilots jobs by saying that they will shrink and give aircraft to other airlines. Really? This was management's negotiating strategy? Notice the success major airlines have and how quick negotiations go at the legacies. They don't have the option of whipsawing each other. They can't just say to the pilot group at United " if you guys don't accept this offer we will award your United flying to the Delta guys".

How do we fix this? We as union members need to work with our reps. Just like a "no furlough" clause to protect you in house we need some kind of "no external transfer of aircraft" clause. Something that eliminates this threat tactic that management uses to get a crappy contract to pass. All regional unions need to come together and work collectively on this. It seems far fetched but management would stop wasting their time and may start to actually come up with something a little more doable in terms of fair contract offers if they knew they had to stop playing games.

To elaborate a little better on what I'm proposing:

Regional airlines bid on CPAs. Pilots continue their employment through awards for new flying / additional aircraft etc. However, we must vow as unified pilots that we will not accept new aircraft orders that were previously offered to another group as bargaining terms. For example AAG offered Envoy a certain amount of aircraft in trade for garbage contract language. It get's rejected by that group and these offered aircraft cannot be flown by another group of pilots that are unified and support this clause in their contract for a certain amount of time. Something like they would be released for another group after 3 failed TA's or 3 years.

Sure it's far fetched and full of holes. Hence why I didn't go to law school. But you get the point. Obviously this whole "one list" thing is a bust and will never occur. But this is a back door approach to that sort of thing. As unified pilots this sort of thing can become an agreement across the industry.

If we ever want to truly stop the race to the bottom we must start to think outside the box. The regional airlines have been a much bigger stepping stone than any of us ever expected. In the future I suspect they will start to shrink. It is important that we do all we can to bring this profession back to something desirable from start to finish. Right now it's a total joke.

 

Yeah, and as individuals do OUR part by not chasing the planes that were offered to Envoy to wherever they end up. Management would get the message in a few months if we ALL did our part.

Envoy pilots stood strong. The least we can do is NOT apply to the carrier(s) who are offered these planes. The best way to thank the Envoy pilots and help fix the profession is not simply buying them a beer, but instead say "thank you" by not helping management screw us.

If you need a job, find a different employer or just wait a few months... there are plenty of other companies hiring, regional or otherwise.

 

Thanks for that

 

Agreed that the 175's won't go to mainline. I was pointing out what would make sense, and that is not what actually ends up happening in this industry.

And you're right that a large number of parted out pilots will remain in the industry. My point is just that not all of them will, and the regional model can't spare to lose any pilots at all.

 

You realize this was AAG plan all along, right? Since the merger we've bearing hearing rumors of closings Eagle. Anyone with common sense knows that ridiculous TA was not going to pass. So they fabricated a reason.

 

Just appears from the sidelines with the vote and much that has been written that the envoy pilots have taken direct shots at AA management. I understand you guys did what you thought you needed to do and the result won't be known immediately if it was good for your career or not.


If AA were to start massive culling of 50 seaters with the addition of 175's couldn't they potentially eliminate much of envoy fairly quickly? What happens to the flow if envoy were to be shut down from the flying standpoint? What would happen to those that don't make the leap beforehand? Do the envoy pilots all have AA seniority numbers now?

I don't know the answers, just asking the questions.

 

Pretty much it.

Legacy pay/work rules at L-LUL/UCH, DAL, etc have come up as of late. Although nowhere near the pre 9/11 levels, it's better then their bankruptcy concessionary contracts.

L-CAL took concessions, as well as L-AA in the first half of the previous decade, while not in BK.

And I'm really not sure how good the new AAG contract is, nor what they get later.

But the idea that the lowest paid pilots need to take concessions while the legacy airlines are making money is simply an asinine concept. One of the myriad of issues is that the contracts between the legacy and the CPA/FFD regional feeders are STILL using the costs that were born out of the terms from the bankruptcy era.

Apples to oranges, but imagine if during the 2008 economic collapse, a guy says he can now only afford to pay his landscaper $80/mo instead of $100 to cut his lawn. The landscaper needs the business, so he sucks hit up. Fast forward, now the guy is making more money than ever before, and NOW wants the landscaper to do it for $70/mo.

Hopefully the RAH guys can stand up and do it too. Because like tsquare said and I mentioned before, even more leverage will fall into the hands of the pilots. More than has been seen in the last 13+ years. Despite the doom and gloom/fear tactics that management tries to pull.

 

Attitude? Almost without exception, the AA captains I have flown with have been supremely cool and laid back - REALLY good guys to spend time with in the cockpit.

Along WITH that, the AE guys are being welcomed with open arms and have gained a good reputation (no thanks to some of the early flows who were problem children) over here.

So, AA has no issues with supposed AE guys with chips on their shoulders. It's just not the case.