Pilot Shortage (2015 Embry Riddle summit)
#291
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 265
Likes: 0
From: Captain - Retired
@skypilot35.... I think seven years is indeed a long time to spend as a regional FO....but with the end of stagnation these days the regional airlines will be faced with the prospect of hiring very low time pilots who are eligible for upgrade withing less than two years.
Also....while seven years is a long time to spend as an FO at a regional airline making very low pay it's not a long time to spend as an FO in a 30-40 year airline career span. Such an FO should be just as competitive for a job at a major airline sitting right seat in a Boeing or Airbus as anybody. In fact I think they are better suited for that job than to sit left seat in a regional jet which requires a higher level of expertise and experience even though they may be qualified and capable....but still it is a better captain who has spent more time as a career first officer (at reasonable pay). After all, almost half of all professional airline pilots must be first officers so it follows that an average pilot would spend half their career as a first officer.
From a purely professional perspective, sitting in the left seat of a regional jet takes a lot more skill and experience than sitting in the right seat of any other airliner for any other airline...even heavies. My point is that it's a bad distribution of experience to take regional jet captains and transition them to right seat at a new "major" airline especially when they take a pay cut for several years just for the chance of higher salaries down the road. It's not a natural economic transition, it's a result of using regional airlines as a massive B scale for the major airlines.
Speaking from experience I can assure you that there is no mystical extra skills needed to work as a first officer on a heavy jet flying long haul than flying short haul in the right seat of a regional jet. In fact the opposite is probably true. In countries where the playing field is more level and seniority is not an issue first officers will often desire the short haul route so they can build the experience needed to become more proficient and companies may assign long haul heavy jets to the first officers who don't perform as well in training where their flying skills are less relevant.
As regional pilots you need to get over the mindset that your goal is to sit in the right seat of a mainline as a career goal and then just figure you will ride the seniority wave to the left seat.
As a regional jet pilot when you walk into the cockpit of a mainline jet for a jumpseat and the first officer acts politely smug and asks you if one day you would like to have his job you should politely say "no, I've already had your job...I hope to have his job" (pointing at the captain's seat).
Also....while seven years is a long time to spend as an FO at a regional airline making very low pay it's not a long time to spend as an FO in a 30-40 year airline career span. Such an FO should be just as competitive for a job at a major airline sitting right seat in a Boeing or Airbus as anybody. In fact I think they are better suited for that job than to sit left seat in a regional jet which requires a higher level of expertise and experience even though they may be qualified and capable....but still it is a better captain who has spent more time as a career first officer (at reasonable pay). After all, almost half of all professional airline pilots must be first officers so it follows that an average pilot would spend half their career as a first officer.
From a purely professional perspective, sitting in the left seat of a regional jet takes a lot more skill and experience than sitting in the right seat of any other airliner for any other airline...even heavies. My point is that it's a bad distribution of experience to take regional jet captains and transition them to right seat at a new "major" airline especially when they take a pay cut for several years just for the chance of higher salaries down the road. It's not a natural economic transition, it's a result of using regional airlines as a massive B scale for the major airlines.
Speaking from experience I can assure you that there is no mystical extra skills needed to work as a first officer on a heavy jet flying long haul than flying short haul in the right seat of a regional jet. In fact the opposite is probably true. In countries where the playing field is more level and seniority is not an issue first officers will often desire the short haul route so they can build the experience needed to become more proficient and companies may assign long haul heavy jets to the first officers who don't perform as well in training where their flying skills are less relevant.
As regional pilots you need to get over the mindset that your goal is to sit in the right seat of a mainline as a career goal and then just figure you will ride the seniority wave to the left seat.
As a regional jet pilot when you walk into the cockpit of a mainline jet for a jumpseat and the first officer acts politely smug and asks you if one day you would like to have his job you should politely say "no, I've already had your job...I hope to have his job" (pointing at the captain's seat).
#292
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 265
Likes: 0
From: Captain - Retired
Ask your boss.
I know.
By "improved scope" what do you mean? Allowing them to fly even larger jets? Scope is only possible because of seniority rules. Without seniority rules, scope wouldn't even be an issue.
If you actually did spend years arguing for the unions not accepting scope and regionals still locked down at 35 seats I'd be impressed.
Ridiculous! The legacy carriers created the modern large jet coast to coast "regionals" as cost cutting labor B-scales and used the unions to make it work. They will always push this boundary and pilots think the unions enforcing scope slow it down but the fact is without the unions the whole system wouldn't even exist.
That's great, so why do you endorse ideas that would directly hinder these developments?
I don't say do nothing but I don't suggest pilots should support ideas you presented that would increase the labor supply. I've said this over and over. There is no pilot shortage. The real problem here is that you are saying there is a pilot shortage and that is consistent with the agenda of the RAA and large flight schools You are spreading the propaganda of the RAA just like the PR firms they hired for that very task...that makes your comments suspicious.
Not interested in busting the unions or getting a new job. This is a typical response I see from mainline slackers who are afraid they can't cut it in a free market....and believe me I see them every day. I'm interested in relaxing the seniority rules at the regional level to bust the combined hold that unions and management have on the bottom half of all airline pilots. I have been around a long time in this business and I don't believe it's all about me anymore.
No...I didn't say that.
Yeah, you got me when you "called me out". I'm just a RAA/flight school PR company poster pretending to be a pilot. Guilty as charged.
That's why I've spent years arguing for higher pay and benefits across the board and, of course, massively improved scope that would significantly reduce regional airline revenue streams.
If you actually did spend years arguing for the unions not accepting scope and regionals still locked down at 35 seats I'd be impressed.
That's also why I advocate for merciless, hyper competitive, devistatting, dream crushing responses from legacy airlines when the day comes that little punk insolent regional airlines try to go IndyAir II with larger planes on their own. I've argued constantly for tightening scope and doing away with things like the "separate certificate trick" that regionals use and profit from to skirt the edges of mainline scope clauses.
That's also why I'm against training bonds/contracts, MPL schemes, reduced minimums (for any flight school, private or Big Ed) as well as being against any kind of government slush fund money for flight schools/colleges and why I'm in favor of higher pay at regionals, full cancellation pay, more days off and better work rules.
If all that reduces the need for what regionals provide and results in more mainline jobs, that's A-OK with me too.
Meanwhile you've advocated against unions and seniority lists, and your only strategy for addressing the so called pilot shortage is to do nothing, even though you admit that if it truly gets to crisis proportions that will increase/guarantee MPL, reduced minimums and pave the way for the "need" for cabotage. Sounds a lot like what an A4A PR firm provocateur would say.
Meanwhile you've advocated against unions and seniority lists, and your only strategy for addressing the so called pilot shortage is to do nothing, even though you admit that if it truly gets to crisis proportions that will increase/guarantee MPL, reduced minimums and pave the way for the "need" for cabotage. Sounds a lot like what an A4A PR firm provocateur would say.
But maybe you really are a pilot. And maybe, one day, they'll finally bust those unions and you can finally get that US legacy widebody captain job that you clearly are qualified for but can't have because of those danged seniority lists.
Oh, and I almost forgot…you also said flying was easy and pilots are basically just button pushers and training/experience really isn't that important anyway. Sounds a lot like a pro-management PR firm (whatever that even is) to me.
#294
Good Article:
The Coming U.S. Pilot Shortage Is Real | Commercial Aviation content from Aviation Week
Some interesting responses as well.
The Coming U.S. Pilot Shortage Is Real | Commercial Aviation content from Aviation Week
Some interesting responses as well.
#295
Banned
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,137
Likes: 0
There is plenty of pilots out there, plenty. Just because a pilot doesn't want to work for the airlines doesn't mean there is a shortage.
A better way to say it is there is a surplus of pilots who are smarter than airline managements.
A better way to say it is there is a surplus of pilots who are smarter than airline managements.
#296
Good Article:
The Coming U.S. Pilot Shortage Is Real | Commercial Aviation content from Aviation Week
Some interesting responses as well.
The Coming U.S. Pilot Shortage Is Real | Commercial Aviation content from Aviation Week
Some interesting responses as well.
Heliocentric on Feb 17, 2015: This article, like so many in this publication, misses the real details of the piloting profession. It's true that the regional airline path at low starting pay has long been a traditional career path for civilian pilots. In the past, regional airlines (or commuter airlines as they used to be called) flew very small turbo propeller airplanes and made up only a small percentage of available jobs...10-15%...which meant that the low pay was short lived and the opportunities to move up to a higher paying airline were plentiful.
What happened is the airlines got greedy and saw an opportunity to offload more of the large jet flying to these low pay airlines to the point that nearly 50% of airline pilots were flying these low paid "regional" jobs...except they are no longer just small prop planes...they are now large passenger jets with business class and extra legroom class that you board through the jet bridge just like any other large passenger jet. Passengers often have no idea they are flying on a regional partner operating under the mainline's brand employing such low pay pilots. In many cases the mainline partner even owns or leases that jet back to the regional partner. By exploiting the traditional seniority structure, along with the cooperation of the pilot's unions which are controlled mostly by the highest paid mainline pilots, airlines have managed to lock pilots into spending ten or more years at these low pay regionals before enough opportunities at the mainline carriers opened up. These low paid regional pilots are locked into their regional airline by a seniority number that prevents them from competing for similar jobs at other airlines or having to start their career all over from the beginning.
The mainline carriers, who encourage this career path because it provides them a large pool of low cost outsourced labor to fly their smaller jets now face the dilemma of rewarding the career path by hiring mostly from this pool of regional pilots while simultaneously draining the pool of low cost labor. The regional airlines are the ones forced to look for new pilots but because of this seniority system structure that is set up by the big airlines and the unions they are only able to offer jobs at the extreme low entry level positions and at low entry level pay. This system effectively locks out the very significant pool of available experienced pilots that are older and have a lot of flight time in other aviation industries or they have chosen to focus on another career for financial reasons but continue to fly on the side.
If regional airlines were able to offer piloting jobs outside the confines of the seniority system unofficially enforced by the large airlines they would be able to draw from this large pool of available experienced pilots and the pilot shortage would cease to exist. Regional Airlines would save millions of dollars in training costs which would offset the higher salaries they would need to offer to attract these older pilots. They could simultaneously continue to offer entry level jobs at entry level wages but with a broader distribution of experience that would benefit safety and prevent them from being forced to upgrade very low experienced pilots to captain of a large jet airliner. I would really like to see Aviation Week take a hard look at the real issues here and stop pandering to the interests of large companies that pay the most advertising with these articles that don't cover the whole story.
What happened is the airlines got greedy and saw an opportunity to offload more of the large jet flying to these low pay airlines to the point that nearly 50% of airline pilots were flying these low paid "regional" jobs...except they are no longer just small prop planes...they are now large passenger jets with business class and extra legroom class that you board through the jet bridge just like any other large passenger jet. Passengers often have no idea they are flying on a regional partner operating under the mainline's brand employing such low pay pilots. In many cases the mainline partner even owns or leases that jet back to the regional partner. By exploiting the traditional seniority structure, along with the cooperation of the pilot's unions which are controlled mostly by the highest paid mainline pilots, airlines have managed to lock pilots into spending ten or more years at these low pay regionals before enough opportunities at the mainline carriers opened up. These low paid regional pilots are locked into their regional airline by a seniority number that prevents them from competing for similar jobs at other airlines or having to start their career all over from the beginning.
The mainline carriers, who encourage this career path because it provides them a large pool of low cost outsourced labor to fly their smaller jets now face the dilemma of rewarding the career path by hiring mostly from this pool of regional pilots while simultaneously draining the pool of low cost labor. The regional airlines are the ones forced to look for new pilots but because of this seniority system structure that is set up by the big airlines and the unions they are only able to offer jobs at the extreme low entry level positions and at low entry level pay. This system effectively locks out the very significant pool of available experienced pilots that are older and have a lot of flight time in other aviation industries or they have chosen to focus on another career for financial reasons but continue to fly on the side.
If regional airlines were able to offer piloting jobs outside the confines of the seniority system unofficially enforced by the large airlines they would be able to draw from this large pool of available experienced pilots and the pilot shortage would cease to exist. Regional Airlines would save millions of dollars in training costs which would offset the higher salaries they would need to offer to attract these older pilots. They could simultaneously continue to offer entry level jobs at entry level wages but with a broader distribution of experience that would benefit safety and prevent them from being forced to upgrade very low experienced pilots to captain of a large jet airliner. I would really like to see Aviation Week take a hard look at the real issues here and stop pandering to the interests of large companies that pay the most advertising with these articles that don't cover the whole story.
#298
Sorry if this has already been posted..........
An open letter to ERAU from a UPS B757/767 Capt. and ERAU graduate.
A Letter to the Editor | The Avion Newspaper | Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University
"I found it highly disturbing that ERAU was involved in a Summit that airline management used to figure out a way to pay their graduates less money. Hopefully, if ERAU has an opportunity to host another Summit, they will broaden the scope of invitations to include the other stakeholders in this, including line pilots, their union representation, and especially ERAU undergraduates and flight instructors, as you should be their primary concern."
An open letter to ERAU from a UPS B757/767 Capt. and ERAU graduate.
A Letter to the Editor | The Avion Newspaper | Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University
"I found it highly disturbing that ERAU was involved in a Summit that airline management used to figure out a way to pay their graduates less money. Hopefully, if ERAU has an opportunity to host another Summit, they will broaden the scope of invitations to include the other stakeholders in this, including line pilots, their union representation, and especially ERAU undergraduates and flight instructors, as you should be their primary concern."
#300
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 514
Likes: 0
From: Left seat of a Jet
@skypilot35.... I think seven years is indeed a long time to spend as a regional FO....but with the end of stagnation these days the regional airlines will be faced with the prospect of hiring very low time pilots who are eligible for upgrade withing less than two years.
Also....while seven years is a long time to spend as an FO at a regional airline making very low pay it's not a long time to spend as an FO in a 30-40 year airline career span. Such an FO should be just as competitive for a job at a major airline sitting right seat in a Boeing or Airbus as anybody. In fact I think they are better suited for that job than to sit left seat in a regional jet which requires a higher level of expertise and experience even though they may be qualified and capable....but still it is a better captain who has spent more time as a career first officer (at reasonable pay). After all, almost half of all professional airline pilots must be first officers so it follows that an average pilot would spend half their career as a first officer.
From a purely professional perspective, sitting in the left seat of a regional jet takes a lot more skill and experience than sitting in the right seat of any other airliner for any other airline...even heavies. My point is that it's a bad distribution of experience to take regional jet captains and transition them to right seat at a new "major" airline especially when they take a pay cut for several years just for the chance of higher salaries down the road. It's not a natural economic transition, it's a result of using regional airlines as a massive B scale for the major airlines.
Speaking from experience I can assure you that there is no mystical extra skills needed to work as a first officer on a heavy jet flying long haul than flying short haul in the right seat of a regional jet. In fact the opposite is probably true. In countries where the playing field is more level and seniority is not an issue first officers will often desire the short haul route so they can build the experience needed to become more proficient and companies may assign long haul heavy jets to the first officers who don't perform as well in training where their flying skills are less relevant.
As regional pilots you need to get over the mindset that your goal is to sit in the right seat of a mainline as a career goal and then just figure you will ride the seniority wave to the left seat.
As a regional jet pilot when you walk into the cockpit of a mainline jet for a jumpseat and the first officer acts politely smug and asks you if one day you would like to have his job you should politely say "no, I've already had your job...I hope to have his job" (pointing at the captain's seat).
Also....while seven years is a long time to spend as an FO at a regional airline making very low pay it's not a long time to spend as an FO in a 30-40 year airline career span. Such an FO should be just as competitive for a job at a major airline sitting right seat in a Boeing or Airbus as anybody. In fact I think they are better suited for that job than to sit left seat in a regional jet which requires a higher level of expertise and experience even though they may be qualified and capable....but still it is a better captain who has spent more time as a career first officer (at reasonable pay). After all, almost half of all professional airline pilots must be first officers so it follows that an average pilot would spend half their career as a first officer.
From a purely professional perspective, sitting in the left seat of a regional jet takes a lot more skill and experience than sitting in the right seat of any other airliner for any other airline...even heavies. My point is that it's a bad distribution of experience to take regional jet captains and transition them to right seat at a new "major" airline especially when they take a pay cut for several years just for the chance of higher salaries down the road. It's not a natural economic transition, it's a result of using regional airlines as a massive B scale for the major airlines.
Speaking from experience I can assure you that there is no mystical extra skills needed to work as a first officer on a heavy jet flying long haul than flying short haul in the right seat of a regional jet. In fact the opposite is probably true. In countries where the playing field is more level and seniority is not an issue first officers will often desire the short haul route so they can build the experience needed to become more proficient and companies may assign long haul heavy jets to the first officers who don't perform as well in training where their flying skills are less relevant.
As regional pilots you need to get over the mindset that your goal is to sit in the right seat of a mainline as a career goal and then just figure you will ride the seniority wave to the left seat.
As a regional jet pilot when you walk into the cockpit of a mainline jet for a jumpseat and the first officer acts politely smug and asks you if one day you would like to have his job you should politely say "no, I've already had your job...I hope to have his job" (pointing at the captain's seat).
If a large investment and no life is required, the payoff had better be living large. If not, then you shoot that dog because he's not going to hunt!
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