He will point to a few isolated well timed examples of certain markets where supply is redline crucial (like some Chinese airlines for example) and extrapolate that to imply that if we took away unions and seniority lists [so he can finally slide on over to a position at a US airline commensurate with his stellar quals) to the entire industry if we only morphed into a free for all bidding system because wages only go up.

If you disagree he will lamely, in a fit of supreme irony, attempt to call you management.

This is actually starting to get fun.

 

It's actually getting tiresome.

The seniority system will not go away because a few pilots feel they were somehow burned because of it. The vast majority of mainline pilots in the USA have benefited from it. There is no other simple way of allocating seats, schedules, vacation, etc. Or cementing unity and commitment. Yes, the CEO may have a bargaining chip with the senior half of the list, but the system also fosters a solidified collective bargaining unit.

I know of no ex-pat who wouldn't trade places with me in a heartbeat.

If a guy wants a free-for-all, "rugged individualist," job market where he can sell his superior skills to the highest bidder unshackled by the socialist fetters of seniority -- corporate aviation awaits.

 

Take first and second year pay and add it together...then go back after five years and see who made more money over the past five years. You are rationalizing based on the carrot rather than what's in your wallet,

You are also comparing the highest paying airlines in the US with some of the lowest paying overseas jobs...which are still higher over near term and on average. You are also not considering the tax advantages but that's a separate issue as far as I'm concerned.

UPS is a good place to work, there's no doubt. But it's not exactly indicative of average pay at US airlines is it? It's also a cargo carrier and you fly the back side of the clock typically. Granted flying for a foreign carrier can impose similar stresses if you commute.

Pretty much any carrier in Asia. Starting salary for a captain in China is between $200K and $300K. There are pilots over there making close to $350K with overtime. And that's first year. Japan and Korea are also up there. It's also interesting to note that smaller regional jets can pay as much as a heavy jet in many cases.

But this isn't my point. You are focusing only on the highest paid jobs in America, not the average pay and the lowest paid jobs and why there is such a disparity.

The seniority system only works well if you are hired young and low time at one of these very few higher paying airlines and can stick around long enough to gain seniority.

What about all those other pilots? The ones who are stuck at regionals building time for more than ten years or the ones who get laid off at an airline after putting in ten or twenty years? You are ignoring the larger issue and focusing solely on the carrot.

 

Never called you management. If you were management you wouldn't have time to be here....I accused you of working for a PR company because your statements in these forums are consistent with the interests of the Regional Airlines Association or with those of a large flight school.

 

I agree with your statements and it has worked for me as well. I am not so selfish to believe that my success isn't flawed. I also think seniority did work under the old system where a few large airlines hired pilots before age 30 and kept them for their entire career.

Again, you are missing my point. The reason I'm discussing this in the regional airline forum is because it affects regional pilots and the seniority system has been a very powerful tool that has enabled the regional airline model to exist and force this massive industry wide B scale. I find it interesting that the people that come in here to defend the system are not affected by it anymore because they are already established at a major carrier with a number.

I'm also not really concerned about foreign jobs or corporate aviation because those jobs are far fewer and are a niche opportunity anyway. After all, who wants to commute to China?

What concerns me isn't the few highest paid jobs in the industry, it's the gradual trend to make those jobs fewer while increasing the number of lower paid jobs. After all, a major airline is more concerned with average labor costs than they are with any individual salary. They can use regional pilots to fly their smaller planes at very low wages so their incentive is to push this model. The seniority system and the carrot are the incentive but it wouldn't work without a few very high paying jobs (the carrot) to dangle.

 

Of course. Who owns all those jets the regionals are flying? Who markets the brand, who sells the seats? Who used to fly jets of that size twenty years ago when regionals exclusively flew turboprops? Why do "regional jets" keep getting bigger and bigger until what used to be king (the 50 seater) is now being phased out completely.

They're not even regional airlines anymore, the transformation is complete.

 

While the enabler of the regional airline model is the seniority system I also understand it's not likely to go away, especially at the majors where we like it the most and it serves long term employment.

What I think should happen is to see the unions support a relaxation of the seniority system at the regional level to see what happens...after all, it can't possibly get any worse.

I think it would be good for regionals too...in the short term...as they could hire experienced captains directly into the left seat to greatly reduce training costs. This would solve the alleged "pilot shortage."

In the long term I think you'd see higher salaries at the captain level and the business model fade away slowly as majors began to re-absorb the flying back from the regionals.

If majors hired pilots based on qualifications and merit without preference to PIC jet time (like they did in the old days) then first officers could still consider the regionals a place to build time to move on to a major.

Get rid of the crazy and irrational entitlements based on seniority at the regional level and allow the regionals to upgrade pilots based on experience and qualifications rather than a number...this would be beneficial to everyone.

 

The seniority system works tremendously well provided you are able to stay at the same airline. However, if you make a decision to leave that airline in favor of another for WHATEVER reason, then you are penalized heavily. The seniority system is a management tool in the sense that the longer you are at an airline, the less likely you are to leave regardless of how badly the airline is being managed.

I have mentioned this before, but WHAT IF we had one seniority list?
A list where you take your "experience" with you.

EXAMPLE:
Bob is a 15 year Captain at ABC airline. He is tired of management chipping away at his benefits and QOL. He decides to leave for XYZ airline, an airline that is managed much better. He's hired on at XYZ as a FO at the 15 year FO rate. He's at the bottom of the list for upgrade, but he retains all his bumping rights for travel, etc.

1. Bob is gonna take a paycut, but it wouldn't be the *** he'd get in our current system.

2. Airlines like XYZ that treat their people well will attract more candidates. Airlines like ABC will lose pilots and be faced with the reality that they need to change something.

The current system we have is flawed and heavily skewed in management's favor. It needs to change.

 

Again I've never been a fan of the idea of a national seniority list either.

A couple points I missed earlier...

There! You said it...."the vast majority of mainline pilots" while ignoring the huge negative effect it has on the entire industry to benefit the few you mentioned. That's why I say get rid of the system where it doesn't work...at the regional level. They need the support and encouragement of the big unions for that.

I've also said that seniority should be restricted to type, base and seat which would serve these needs just fine...rewarding loyal employees without restricting their options.

You don't need a seniority system to have a solid and strong union. They are not co-dependent.

Again....that's the point!!! Because they can't even if you both wanted it.

You have probably used this phrase "rugged individualist" hundreds of times in these and other forums. You do realize that this phrase refers to the fundamental principals of a free and democratic market and is considered the opposite of communism right?

 

Yes, the most sensible alternative is to have seniority exist in the position for which you are hired and to not have any "automatic" upgrades or promotions, apart from longevity pay, just because you have graced the earth with your beautiful presence (seniority).

Seniority is the absolute definition of "entitlement". "I've been here forever, I may be a horrible person, a so-so pilot, etc, but I got my number and I'll get there before the lower guys".

In other business, you don't get "upgraded" automatically when there is a need, you put in an application and get considered, at least against every one else in a position similar to yours, and at worst the public is allowed to apply from outside. The concept that you should have "seniority" to reach the pinnacle of equipment, base, position, trips and everything else is mind-blowing to the rest of the business world.

The way it should be is you apply for an FO position, that's what you are, until you apply for a CPT position or something similar and are accepted. This way the brightest and most capable would float to the top, rather than just whomever got in "first". Then you could take your experience when you were passed over and apply for a position at airline B and not lose any significant pay, since it would be based on position, in other words you are a CPT and could apply as a CPT. May not make it, but that's just the way the rest of the business world works, there are no "guaranteed jobs", at least to the extent we see in the airline business.

This would force airlines to compete against each other for pilots, something that never happens because pilots get "locked in" the seniority system. Once you are locked in, there's no incentive for them to compete against each other, except for the entry level, which will eventually mean funding loans for flight training, maybe some bonuses, some bridge programs, basically everything except revamping the entire system and bringing it up to par with the rest of the professional world.

I'd rather see a more competitive system, with seniority just relegated to type and position. If you are not confident enough to compete in such a system, you probably shouldn't be flying at the level your seniority number has gotten you to.