It would depend on the individual. If that pilot who was displaced out of base had established a life there and got displaced to a place where he now had to commute...and take a downgrade in the process...I'd say the seniority system didn't protect him, it screwed him.

If the displacement was because of a competitor airline moving in on his old airline's territory I'd say the seniority system is what's preventing him from making a lateral job move by applying for work at the competitor so he can stay where he lives.

The seniority system is a cage no matter how you look at it. You can train a dog to feel comfortable in his crate but it doesn't mean it's not just a metal cage.

I'm sorry but that's not how it works. What would happen is that starting salaries would tend to level out across the board. Average pay for first officers would go up based on market demand. The system of becoming a captain on a regional jet to qualify as a first officer on a mainline jet would go away.

The only reason experienced pilots accept job offers at $20K-$30K per year is because of the incentive to get a seniority number. The only reason first officers sit in the right seat of a regional jet for ten years is to hang on to that seniority number. It certainly isn't because that's what the job is worth.

Take away the seniority system and you eliminate any incentive to work for so cheap.

Part of the problem is pilots have been indoctrinated to believe there is less honor in being a regional jet pilot vs a mainline pilot. This perception is the result of the seniority system. The goal in aviation should be to aspire to captain and increase your pay but the goal has become to get a seniority number at a mainline and hang on to it. For that reason alone airlines have managed to force down salaries at the regional level. Being a captain of a regional jet should be a higher level position that being a first officer on a heavy. The only reason it's not is because it doesn't give you a seniority number at a mainline. I personally prefer short haul domestic as opposed to long haul international and have done both. I'd just as soon fly as captain in a regional jet if they paid competitive salary. The E jets from Embraer are pretty nice equipment and there should be no shame in piloting them.

Yes exactly, but the grossly disparate longevity based pay scales are the direct result of seniority.

Again, that's true but that's the point.The only reason pilots work for dirt cheap starting salaries so long is for that "lighted carrot pot of gold at the end of the rainbow tunnel" (as you put it). Pilots would of course jump from company to company...that's the direct result of a high labor demand and it naturally drives up prices (starting salaries). Airlines that want to reduce training costs and reduce attrition would need to offer higher pay to retain pilots and they would...just like any other business that doesn't have a seniority system they can use to lock down their employees.

I hear this argument a lot but again it doesn't matter. There is no federal regulation that requires airlines to maintain a seniority system. The regulations are designed so that less experienced pilots start out as first officers and spend time gaining experience before moving up to captain. That wouldn't change. What would happen is that once a pilot became a captain he would likely be able to remain a captain the rest of his career regardless of job changes.

Many industries are regulated but don't use a seniority system for their employees. The labor costs are still affected by free market. All the regulation does is limit the pool of potential employees to those who meet the federal standards. In this case they must have an ATP, pass a background check and meet proficiency standards.

In the old days management tried to force down labor costs with "B scales" but realized it would work even better within a separate seniority structure.

The regional airline model is nothing more than a massive industry wide B scale that uses lower paid and usually, but not necessarily, lower experience pilots to do the exact same job as the mainlines. The only thing that allows this business model to sustain itself is the seniority system. Management knows this better than anyone which is why management will always implement a seniority system in airlines even in the absence of a labor union. It's about the only industry where the employees would tolerate such a thing.

 

Then how do you explain the rest of the industry that does not have a seniority system? I have seen it before with a King Air. A King Air operator shows up and says he needs an FO for his charter. He is offering $100 a day. It won't take long for a CFI to offer to do the job for free just to get some turbine time so he can find a real job that pays more later. There is no seniority system there.

 

Simple, the dream of being Number One at DL, UA, SW lets the CFI justify sacrifices at early stages of his career to reach the "pot of gold". And everyone of those guys believes it will be him at #1 or reasonably close. Look up "winner take all" economics. It's like the acting business or sports.

GF

 

I really don't understand your issue with seniority, nor your purpose in trying to change minds regarding the system. The seniority based system in this industry will not change in the US...you're wasting your time. In terms of seniority being a tool of management, there are other organizations that use seniority that don't have a management-labor relationship, such as in politics or the military. Military date of rank sets seniority. Years as a senator or Congressman affect committee chairmanships. I think the entire argument is a red herring.

 

I don't see how that example is relevant. Sitting right seat in a King Air under part 91 isn't even loggable flight time. There is no reason anyone should expect to be paid much for that. As a high time pilot I've often sat right seat for friends who needed someone to go along on the flight. I wouldn't presume to ask for money unless someone was paying him for me to be there. If a CFI is doing it for free he's wasting his time anyway so who cares?

Many other smaller operators pay much higher salaries than regional pilots in similar equipment and they don't have contracts or seniority systems. Yesterday I saw an ad for a 135 operator who is hiring E135 pilots starting at $120K. Try making that much in a regional flying an ERJ. You asked how do I explain the rest of the industry that may not use a seniority system....I think I just did.

 

Indeed, and ultimately an extension of optimism bias. The catch-22 behind the willingness to undercut your competition at the entry level is that in doing so, you dilute the compensation for all rungs of the ladder. This idea that people are willing to indulge in economically self-deprecating behavior up to a preset point, but all of a sudden put their foot down at an infinitesimally higher level of a labor environment, is just fallacious self-delusion. He who is willing to undercut at the bottom, will always exhibit that behavior at all levels. That's why once a cheat always a cheat, don't marry a stripper et al pick your platitude.

Don't do something for money other people are willing to do for free. This should not be news to the demographic of this board. The reality has always been that there are more people willing and capable of doing this job than there are musical chairs worth having. This creates an environment where safety can be compromised if artificial barriers to entry are not established in the name of public safety. I certainly don't want people who enjoy the happenstance of being able to negotiate their economic needs via sources external to the job, as the only demographic that can afford to work as an airline pilot. Colgan was a textbook example of that dynamic.

 

You may be right about wasting my time. All I can do is lead a horse to water...

Military is not a strictly seniority based system at all. It's completely different. Rank isn't exclusively based on date of hire and the military often hires recruits directly as officers or as NCOs based on certain skills. Also, if you change jobs in the military you don't have to give up your rank and pay.

Politics also isn't a good comparison because elected officials are not in an employer/employee relationship.

If pilots choose to starve themselves on shrinking salaries what else can I or anybody else do? The fact is only the unions or an act of congress could eliminate the seniority system but unions and management (who can hire congress) are the biggest fans of the system. It's the average line pilot who suffers.

It blows my mind that pilots keep doing this to themselves.

 

I know most of you are dead set that seniority is the only way to protect your pay but the fact is that your pay sucks....it's getting lower over time (average pay that is).

Pretty much every single example in aviation shows that companies that don't use seniority systems pay higher starting salaries than those that do. The highest paid jobs in aviation are non union and without seniority.

The system in place is not ideal, it doesn't work for pilots, it eliminates options, so why do pilots defend it so adamantly?

 

Name one company that pays their pilots better than DAL, FDX, UPS, or SWA.

 

GooglesPisano,

A more interesting question might be how has the inflation adjusted pay of union seniority-based professionals compare to others professionals over the last 30 years?

Everyone is saying pilot shortages will result in better pay, but I wonder. From mgt's view, why should I be worried about my pilots, who can't leave my poor pay due to seniority, leaving me to work for my competitor. Bidding wars are happening in corporates for experienced guys. I'm proposing a 20% increase to forestall guys leaving. And reduced schedule.

GF