And regional will never pay anything close to what you are worth for the job and major airlines will continue to fall further and further behind inflation and wages from the past. The seniority system is probably the biggest reason for this. Like said elsewhere, the "seniority" system, as used in the airline industry, exists almost nowhere else in military or professional business and industry. For good reason.

 

Okay, let's compare pilot pay at DAL, SWA, FDX, UPS with Fortune 500 pilot pay. A perfect petri dish comparing seniority-collective bargaining with "free-market" individualism.

 

No problem, account for the difference in revenue generation, first. GLF/GLEX pay is now equal to MadDog CA pay, but look at how a year's revenue and hours flown compare.

I'm not opposed to seniority, but let's consider its effects. If you're an airline CEO at the table, you know, in the end, no mid-list or greater seniority pilot is leaving the job to join his competitor's airline at the bottom. That's a large negotiating power. No matter what happens, his employees aren't leaving. Yes, I walked the EA line.

GF

 

In my example, there was no seniority system. Seniority would have allowed him to bid to a different category and remain in base. Lack of seniority would allow the company to say "this is your new position, take it or leave it"

I don't disagree that this industry needs better job portability, but I don't think eliminating seniority is the ticket. Flattening the pay scales is. This is an experience-based industry. The lower rungs of the industry are free of unions and seniority. Yet, the pay is low. It's to gain experience to get the next job. Regional pay is low not because of unions and seniority, but because you need to gain experience to get a major job. Piston twin night freight pay is low not because it's an easy job, but because you need the experience to get a better job.

It may be a cage to encourage retention, but it also gives you some control of your life at that company. Removing seniority will make everyone have the unpredictability of being at the bottom of the list.

What do you see as a realistic alternative to seniority? Especially when it comes to bidding schedules and vacation.

 

Nowhere else in industry do employees have no direct contact with their immediate supervisor while doing a job that allows for very little variation in actual performance of your duties.

 

Bedrock,
I don't believe I have ever read one of your posts that doesn't show some thoughtfulness and critical thinking applied.
A rare commodity in our age of google and bumpersticker/TV commentary styled insights.

 

Pretty much any foreign airlinee that hires expats. There are first year pilots at foreign airlines making more money than the most senior UPS captain after thirty years, and they're not even flying heavies.

First, quote me the starting salaries at those companies. I think they are all in the $30K to $60K range, which are some of the highest starting salaries in the industry. Again this is regardless of experience or qualifications. Average salaries at the top earning companies like UPS are in the $180K-$190K range. But considering the time it takes to reach that level (15 years or so to captain at UPS) it's not a reasonable career path unless you start working there with low time at less than 30 years old.

On the other hand, if you get hired at UPS or FedEx (or any of the big majors) in your twenties and manage to stay their your entire career it's not a bad deal....but if you get laid off, furloughed etc., you are screwed and have to start over. That's the point.

30-40 years ago, such a career track was very common and it made sense. Today, very very few pilots will get such an opportunity to ride a single seniority system their whole career.

You asked again...

It would take you at least ten to twenty years at such an airline before you broke even with the pay you could get at a descent corporate flight department flying a large business jet. If you are an experienced pilot in your late 40s or so....you're not going to ever get that pay. That is because the seniority system blocks lateral movement of pilots.

And that's just the majors... let's discuss the regionals where so many pilots actually do work (which is why I think these discussions are most relevant to the regional forums). So my answer is the pay at airlines sucks.

 

Maybe I misunderstood your example but I think it doesn't change my point. Seniority could just as easily screw you over as help you depending on the circumstances.

I disagree...It's not experienced based....it's seniority based. If you get hired at an airline as one of the most experienced pilots on the list you won't advance one bit based on experience. Flatter pay scales comes from an open labor market.

Airline pilots love to point out the top tier salaries of a very few pilots without realizing that the chances of ever achieving those levels for a new pilot entering the industry is extremely low. Right now a new pilot entering this industry can expect a career average salary of less than $80K per year.

This isn't true. The lower rungs (regional airlines) are not free of unions and seniority, they are over run with unions and seniority. What's lower than the starting salary at a union regional airline? If you are referring to rock bottom non-union entry level time building opportunities such as flight instruction...those jobs actually pay better than airlines.

I spent several years flying night freight before regionals and made more money than a regional airline captain back in the day (when banks still moved checks at night). I don't know what they pay these days but I thought it was mostly a dying industry.

Also, why should flying a 50-90 passenger jet airliner be considered as an experience building opportunity. It's no different than a 150 passenger jet as far as the job requirements and skills needed. In the old days when seniority worked for pilots and not for management such airlines didn't exist. It's ridiculous to think you need jet captain experience at a regional to be a first officer at a major.

Regional airlines are an industry wide B-scale, not an experience building opportunity.

What control? It gives management control...control over your pay and life. You have absolutely no control over your career withing the company when on a seniority list. Apart from maybe being able to control keeping your number.

This is a good question. I think seniority always has some place to reward loyal employees but it needs to be more relaxed and specific to base/seat/equipment....not strictly company wide. Also, there in no reason we can't have union representation without seniority. They are not a mutual requirement.

 

First year pay at many, if not all, US airlines is low. Second year pay is a better comparison.

2nd year:
DL - 75660
Emirates - 69876
UPS - 145275

Junior captain:
DL (8) - 153660
Emirates (7) - 126576
UPS (15) - 255450

15 year captain:
DL - 161680 (MD88)
Emirates - 115824
UPS - 255450

Granted I don't know all the companies that hire expats. But all second year UPS FOs makes more than any captain at Emirates. All 3rd year and almost all 2nd year FOs at Delta make more than any Emirates FO. Delta 777 and 747 FOs with more than 4 years on property make more than any Emirates Captain.
All Delta Captains make more than any captain at Emirates. Show me the expat companies that pay more.

Out of curiosity, what is your background and current segment of the industry?

 

Yes! But the A-scale companies also dictate that it is experience building. Not saying it should be, just that it is.