Atlas Houston
01-13-2020, 01:33 PM
#111
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,236
Originally Posted by galaxy flyer
See Adlerdriver’s comment. Atlas and Mesa, to single out two “new leaves” need to step up and say, “.try something else for a career”. It was two consecutive failed checkrides and FEB time, not sure if that’s still true.
Having been in both communities, getting a “pass” is easier in heavies than tactical. In fighters, weak ones either scare the DO and he acts or they kill themselves. In heavies, it’s a bit dicier as there’s the cover of being part of a crew. I was involved in three Flying Evaluation Boards, as witness, as board president and once as DO (alright OG) who went to the one-star recommending an FEB. One respondent was saved to go to a heavy, the other two respondents lost their wings and subsequently terminated at their airline, not because of the FEB, but behaviors tend to continue on outside of the military. Maybe there could be an FAA FEB process that isn’t violation driven.
GF
Having been in both communities, getting a “pass” is easier in heavies than tactical. In fighters, weak ones either scare the DO and he acts or they kill themselves. In heavies, it’s a bit dicier as there’s the cover of being part of a crew. I was involved in three Flying Evaluation Boards, as witness, as board president and once as DO (alright OG) who went to the one-star recommending an FEB. One respondent was saved to go to a heavy, the other two respondents lost their wings and subsequently terminated at their airline, not because of the FEB, but behaviors tend to continue on outside of the military. Maybe there could be an FAA FEB process that isn’t violation driven.
GF
To me a training washout where you never bust a checkride because you were never recommended for it should count for FAR more than a simple hiccup on a Single Engine Go Around that's remediated and passed in the recheck. Some how CA seemed to have less on his record because all of his problems were "Resignations".
I like your recommendation of an FEB Recommendation for the Civilian World. Maybe a bad "Resignation" could come with an FEB strike or something. If it's seen again then any Type Ride taken again comes with an automatic 409 attached where the FAA sees it from a 3rd party view. If the FAA and 2 different carriers are all saying the same thing... I get it that in the Civilian world someone may wash out of training one time and maybe rebound. 2 is more than enough and at that point they should be changing careers even if it's more than 5 years apart. I'm not sure what you do with people who just fail to upgrade.
01-13-2020, 01:51 PM
#112
Line Holder
Joined APC: Aug 2019
Posts: 96
Originally Posted by Av8tr1
oh! This is so perfect. I’m gonna use this in the future.
My point of Mesa being a place to start over was in response to the person defending that company. A broken clock is right twice a day too, so just because there are some decent pilots in the group does not change the fact that there are a lot of screw ups- notably including the FO who flew 3591 into the ground.
01-13-2020, 03:08 PM
#113
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,261
Originally Posted by Globemaster2827
I've seen military pilots who needed a career change. Some of them got one but I did see a few slip through the cracks.
01-13-2020, 04:55 PM
#114
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2014
Position: And hold
Posts: 311
Originally Posted by Intrdmnslalien
My personal pronouns are: your royal highness, and your majesty. Anyone who disagrees is just a hateful bigot.
My point of Mesa being a place to start over was in response to the person defending that company. A broken clock is right twice a day too, so just because there are some decent pilots in the group does not change the fact that there are a lot of screw ups- notably including the FO who flew 3591 into the ground.
My point of Mesa being a place to start over was in response to the person defending that company. A broken clock is right twice a day too, so just because there are some decent pilots in the group does not change the fact that there are a lot of screw ups- notably including the FO who flew 3591 into the ground.
On the Mesa thing, I don't have a dog in this hunt, but I quit two jobs within 3 months of each other over safety issues. In either cases I had no issues in training passed both check rides with "flying colors" but after getting on the line I realized safety wasn't even an afterthought. And punched out before I got killed. One company I was on the line for 2 weeks. The other company 3 weeks. So I have 2 short term stints on my resume that look like I failed in training when that wasn't the case at all. Out of 30 years of flying, 20 something checkrides (not including my military training) and 11 ratings. I have had one single failure and that was during my primary flight training, no accidents or incidents and never face disciplinary action from the FAA. Didn't even fail my initial CFI and everyone fails that.
SO would you say the same thing about me? I quit 2 jobs within 3 months of each other from VERY questionable safety issues. Both companies had major fines issued against them. Both companies tried to get me to violate the regulations and fly unsafe and unairworthy aircraft. In one company's case they have been fined by the FAA pretty much every year in the last decade. They were angry when I quit and are certainly giving me a bad reference. Would you recommend me for a "409" ride (thought it was a 709)?
My point is "don't believe everything a company says about employees".
01-13-2020, 05:56 PM
#115
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,236
Originally Posted by rickair7777
There's always outliers. But frankly any mil pilot who struggles with airlines likely has a work ethic problem, vice an aptitude problem.
01-13-2020, 05:59 PM
#116
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,236
Originally Posted by Av8tr1
I identify as a attack helicopter, but prefer to be addressed as Obergruppenfuhrer (that goes over real well with my jewish family).
On the Mesa thing, I don't have a dog in this hunt, but I quit two jobs within 3 months of each other over safety issues. In either cases I had no issues in training passed both check rides with "flying colors" but after getting on the line I realized safety wasn't even an afterthought. And punched out before I got killed. One company I was on the line for 2 weeks. The other company 3 weeks. So I have 2 short term stints on my resume that look like I failed in training when that wasn't the case at all. Out of 30 years of flying, 20 something checkrides (not including my military training) and 11 ratings. I have had one single failure and that was during my primary flight training, no accidents or incidents and never face disciplinary action from the FAA. Didn't even fail my initial CFI and everyone fails that.
SO would you say the same thing about me? I quit 2 jobs within 3 months of each other from VERY questionable safety issues. Both companies had major fines issued against them. Both companies tried to get me to violate the regulations and fly unsafe and unairworthy aircraft. In one company's case they have been fined by the FAA pretty much every year in the last decade. They were angry when I quit and are certainly giving me a bad reference. Would you recommend me for a "409" ride (thought it was a 709)?
My point is "don't believe everything a company says about employees".
On the Mesa thing, I don't have a dog in this hunt, but I quit two jobs within 3 months of each other over safety issues. In either cases I had no issues in training passed both check rides with "flying colors" but after getting on the line I realized safety wasn't even an afterthought. And punched out before I got killed. One company I was on the line for 2 weeks. The other company 3 weeks. So I have 2 short term stints on my resume that look like I failed in training when that wasn't the case at all. Out of 30 years of flying, 20 something checkrides (not including my military training) and 11 ratings. I have had one single failure and that was during my primary flight training, no accidents or incidents and never face disciplinary action from the FAA. Didn't even fail my initial CFI and everyone fails that.
SO would you say the same thing about me? I quit 2 jobs within 3 months of each other from VERY questionable safety issues. Both companies had major fines issued against them. Both companies tried to get me to violate the regulations and fly unsafe and unairworthy aircraft. In one company's case they have been fined by the FAA pretty much every year in the last decade. They were angry when I quit and are certainly giving me a bad reference. Would you recommend me for a "409" ride (thought it was a 709)?
My point is "don't believe everything a company says about employees".
01-13-2020, 06:38 PM
#117
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,670
Originally Posted by Adlerdriver
I second this.
What many in the industry (141 schools, airline training departments, unions, etc) seem to lose sight of is that no one is entitled to a career in aviation. It doesn't matter how badly they want it, how much money they have to fund their training, how many diversity driven lawyers are on their side or whatever sob story they can use to drum up sympathy.
Some people aren't cut out for this line of work and that's that. We'd all be better off if that was enforced stringently.
What many in the industry (141 schools, airline training departments, unions, etc) seem to lose sight of is that no one is entitled to a career in aviation. It doesn't matter how badly they want it, how much money they have to fund their training, how many diversity driven lawyers are on their side or whatever sob story they can use to drum up sympathy.
Some people aren't cut out for this line of work and that's that. We'd all be better off if that was enforced stringently.
Originally Posted by Globemaster2827
The one in particular I'm thinking of I'd agree.
01-17-2020, 04:57 AM
#118
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,349
Originally Posted by Globemaster2827
I know Atlas had the 2 strikes and then a ride for your ticket rule but that may be more of an FAA thing. It looks to me like CA circumvented that by never taking Checkrides he knew he wouldn't pass. That's why he "Resigned". Part of this probably needs to be that the "Resigned" loop hole needs to be closed when it's for certain reasons. If you "Resign" because UPS called you during training that you were breezing through then fine... If you "Resign" because your "Goldfish Died 3 years ago" when the company wasn't going to give you anymore training then it needs to count for something.
To me a training washout where you never bust a checkride because you were never recommended for it should count for FAR more than a simple hiccup on a Single Engine Go Around that's remediated and passed in the recheck. Some how CA seemed to have less on his record because all of his problems were "Resignations".
I like your recommendation of an FEB Recommendation for the Civilian World. Maybe a bad "Resignation" could come with an FEB strike or something. If it's seen again then any Type Ride taken again comes with an automatic 409 attached where the FAA sees it from a 3rd party view. If the FAA and 2 different carriers are all saying the same thing... I get it that in the Civilian world someone may wash out of training one time and maybe rebound. 2 is more than enough and at that point they should be changing careers even if it's more than 5 years apart. I'm not sure what you do with people who just fail to upgrade.
To me a training washout where you never bust a checkride because you were never recommended for it should count for FAR more than a simple hiccup on a Single Engine Go Around that's remediated and passed in the recheck. Some how CA seemed to have less on his record because all of his problems were "Resignations".
I like your recommendation of an FEB Recommendation for the Civilian World. Maybe a bad "Resignation" could come with an FEB strike or something. If it's seen again then any Type Ride taken again comes with an automatic 409 attached where the FAA sees it from a 3rd party view. If the FAA and 2 different carriers are all saying the same thing... I get it that in the Civilian world someone may wash out of training one time and maybe rebound. 2 is more than enough and at that point they should be changing careers even if it's more than 5 years apart. I'm not sure what you do with people who just fail to upgrade.
01-17-2020, 05:03 AM
#119
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,349
Originally Posted by Adlerdriver
I second this.
What many in the industry (141 schools, airline training departments, unions, etc) seem to lose sight of is that no one is entitled to a career in aviation. It doesn't matter how badly they want it, how much money they have to fund their training, how many diversity driven lawyers are on their side or whatever sob story they can use to drum up sympathy.
Some people aren't cut out for this line of work and that's that. We'd all be better off if that was enforced stringently.
What many in the industry (141 schools, airline training departments, unions, etc) seem to lose sight of is that no one is entitled to a career in aviation. It doesn't matter how badly they want it, how much money they have to fund their training, how many diversity driven lawyers are on their side or whatever sob story they can use to drum up sympathy.
Some people aren't cut out for this line of work and that's that. We'd all be better off if that was enforced stringently.
So its accurate to say diversity played a role. It's dangerous for us to focus on single causes. All of us wear a tablespoon of blood on our lapels for this one. This was a complete systemic, cultural and ethical failure that's still ongoing.
01-17-2020, 06:38 AM
#120
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,261
Originally Posted by Elevation
Something I think we miss is that this failure is a failure across all levels and multiple departments here at Atlas. Executive pressure put the training department into a position of passing folks who shouldmt be passed. Executive pressure got HR to avoid looking at files or communicating flight operations. Training curricula isn't appropriate for the candidates we are hiring. Culturally we want to see people we like hanging with succeed so we dont yank people who need to be yanked. On the line we covered for these people's mistakes.
So its accurate to say diversity played a role. It's dangerous for us to focus on single causes. All of us wear a tablespoon of blood on our lapels for this one. This was a complete systemic, cultural and ethical failure that's still ongoing.
So its accurate to say diversity played a role. It's dangerous for us to focus on single causes. All of us wear a tablespoon of blood on our lapels for this one. This was a complete systemic, cultural and ethical failure that's still ongoing.
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