Adlerdriver

If you truly believe this, then you really need to find another line of work. Do your company and your fellow pilots a favor and never burden another crew with your "just marginally less likely to die" capabilities.

60av8tor

Geez, relax man. That guy’s perspective and yours aren’t mutually exclusive. The fact that the crew may have sucked (I didn’t fly with them), doesn’t mean there isn’t systemic issues in process at Atlas. I’m pretty sure that’s all he was saying.

Adlerdriver

I'm very relaxed. The crew in the mishap has nothing to do with his comment. I just don't think someone who essentially thinks they're not dying on a trip out of luck or that it's just not their time should be doing the job. Systemic issues or not, you show up at company X with a set of basic qualifications that allow you to safely operate. If you can't step into that job, learn the new aircraft and be successful, then you never should have gotten the job in the first place. If a company is hiring pilots that still need to actually be taught basic skills, then there's a much bigger problem. So, if someone is flying at that company and thinks they're "marginally less likely to die" when they come to work, they don't belong in that aircraft.

zerozero

Yeah, but your position is missing Elevation's most important point: If you only focus on how bad the crew was you're dismissing how bad the problems are at Atlas that 1) allowed the FO to get hired with his work record, 2) allowed the FO to make it through training, 3) allowed the FO to be paired up with a weak Capt, and finally 4) allowed these two to put the aircraft into a condition from which they couldn't recover.

Blame it on the two guys or blame it on the larger organization. I know which one I pick.

ShyGuy

The problem I have with the likes of the Colgan CA and the Atlas FO is they willfully lied about their backgrounds, failures, and training histories. And had they disclosed the full truth on their apps, they wouldn’t have been hired in the first place. Lying like that as a professional aviator is an insult and injustice to your fellow pilots, passengers, people on the ground, and of course to your own self.

Adlerdriver

I get his point. Systemic issues at Atlas. However, it's flawed because it completely discounts the personal responsibility we all have working in this career field. In the context of his comment, he's saying both of these pilots were so incompetent that they were completely unaware of how poorly trained and prepared they were to handle the job they accepted. Maybe that was the case with these two specific individuals, but doubtful that it carries through the entire pilot group. If someone is so clueless that they can "feel comfortable when we're probably just marginally less likely to die than our peers" I think that's an abrogation rather than the norm. The collective "We" and "we're" he used in his comment puts every pilot in whatever group he's referring to (all of Atlas?) in that same category. I seriously doubt that's the case. Most pilots know if they possess the skills, currency and aptitude to successfully complete a flight.

Elevation

Glad I've got your attention. Actually the point I was making is that when we say "Hey! That crew sucked!" we don't self-reflect. None of us would go flying if we didn't have supreme confidence in our own abilities. That confidence turns into an identity issue where we throw stones before acknowledging the pitfalls that we could walk into ourselves.

My point in that we're just marginally less likely to die is based on a previous assertion that crews who died on other planes (737max) were simply inept. This may be the case, but we then fail to recognize our own issues within first-tier, Western companies. That's why I chose to reference the accidents I did.

So do I think I can outfly you, personally? Yup. Come fight me.
But do I think I'm also susceptible to the same things that kill idiots? Yup.

Elevation

Agreed. I wonder how many are currently getting away with it?

60av8tor

And when I go back to swinging gear again, I’m much more comfortable doing it for someone humble, but confident any day of the week. Someone that knows they’re competent and capable, but also knows that everyone - including themselves - is fallible; someone that can look at all the info, make informed decisions, and not jump to conclusions. I’ve worked with guys who spout off like they’re the second coming, and the minute things go wonky they’re a hot mess. Again, multiple view points are at play. Saying a training program sucks, or that an HR department didn’t do due diligence doesn’t mean the individuals were any less culpable.

rickair7777

PRD should help put a stop to that. It's a single consolidated database, one-stop shopping. Unlike PRIA which is very cumbersome and depends on employers from the distant past to 1) still be in business, 2) still have records, and 3) process PRIA requests correctly.

I think PRD has a benefit for pilots too... you can instantly see what your history is. With PRIA employers do not have to give you that info unless you have actually applied for another job and the new employer processes the PRIA paperwork.