Atlas Houston
12-20-2019 | 01:26 PM
#41
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 13,843
Likes: 1
From: FAA 'Flight Check'
When I worked at a well known cargo contractor they hired a guy who did not have a commercial SEL for the Caravan. He had a MEL commercial and somehow thought that automagically gave him a SEL commercial. He was "interviewed by 2 people in HR, had his credentials checked by a 3rd person in HR".
Then was interviewed by the Chief Pilot and one other person.
Got the "entire way through indoc and ground school" and was sent off to Flight safety who fortunately hires better record checkers and Flight Safety caught the discrepancy.
During the investigation after this debacle it was found he lied on this application and also said he had a ATP that he did not have.
Then that "contract" cargo company company who shall remain nameless told said idiot that if he went out and got his commercial SEL he could come back. And "every single person who was involved still works there" except said idiot who had he stayed would be one of many in the village of idiots. And where was the FAA in all this????
Given what I have seen in my career in aviation I am not surprised one single bit that this accident happened the way it did.
Then was interviewed by the Chief Pilot and one other person.
Got the "entire way through indoc and ground school" and was sent off to Flight safety who fortunately hires better record checkers and Flight Safety caught the discrepancy.
During the investigation after this debacle it was found he lied on this application and also said he had a ATP that he did not have.
Then that "contract" cargo company company who shall remain nameless told said idiot that if he went out and got his commercial SEL he could come back. And "every single person who was involved still works there" except said idiot who had he stayed would be one of many in the village of idiots. And where was the FAA in all this????
Given what I have seen in my career in aviation I am not surprised one single bit that this accident happened the way it did.
12-20-2019 | 01:30 PM
#42
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 44,931
Likes: 699
From: Engines Turn or People Swim
They will not really attempt to address broader corporate cultural issues much beyond CRM and middle-management. Elite business leaders (and their political cronies) do not want mid-level federal fact checkers trying to second-guess their business vision with nebulous cultural assessments. Middle-managers are paid to take the fall for that kind of thing.
12-20-2019 | 01:32 PM
#43
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 44,931
Likes: 699
From: Engines Turn or People Swim
It's right here: https://www.faa.gov/regulations_poli...ords_database/
And it might even get finished faster now.
12-20-2019 | 01:34 PM
#44
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 4,136
Likes: 326
I think what is truly interesting about this accident is just how many miss steps were made along the way not just in the actual event but the pilot selection process to training history as well.
Three regional carriers who are certainly more hard up for pilots had the cajones to say NFW to this guy (AWAC also interviewed and declined to hire the Colgan FO) without knowing about his background yet Atlas found his performance to be acceptable?
On a side note I flew with one of the management pilots that interviewed (and hired) me at a legacy...we had some interesting discussions on hiring and according to him flat the hardest part of choosing to hire someone is determining if what they said in their application is true or made up.
Three regional carriers who are certainly more hard up for pilots had the cajones to say NFW to this guy (AWAC also interviewed and declined to hire the Colgan FO) without knowing about his background yet Atlas found his performance to be acceptable?
On a side note I flew with one of the management pilots that interviewed (and hired) me at a legacy...we had some interesting discussions on hiring and according to him flat the hardest part of choosing to hire someone is determining if what they said in their application is true or made up.
12-20-2019 | 02:02 PM
#45
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 331
Likes: 1
From: And hold
Seriously? Isn't that the point of certificate actions? Falsification or intentional misrepresentation of pilot qualifications or logbooks? While I can't think of anything specific at the moment I do recall a couple of newsworthy articles about pilots who claimed certificates they did not have.
Isn't that what happened here? The FO presented a falseified training record that did not include all required PRIA records. I would expect (Hope?) the FAA would have done something if they had found out about this guys falsified history prior to this accident. Isn' the whole point of the FAA to ensure rules are followed by pilots and certificate holders?
Isn't that what happened here? The FO presented a falseified training record that did not include all required PRIA records. I would expect (Hope?) the FAA would have done something if they had found out about this guys falsified history prior to this accident. Isn' the whole point of the FAA to ensure rules are followed by pilots and certificate holders?
12-20-2019 | 02:08 PM
#46
Line Holder
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 293
Likes: 4
From: 767 FO
That’s not the only example of a guy with the wrong certs getting through training.
I don’t remember the exact details, but story at my regional was a guy got a few sims In before they figured out he did not have a multi rating.
I don’t remember the exact details, but story at my regional was a guy got a few sims In before they figured out he did not have a multi rating.
12-20-2019 | 02:59 PM
#47
Retired.
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 449
Likes: 7
From: Retired
Refused to sign of guys regardless of their skin color if incompetent.
The discrimination lawsuit white elephant was always in the room, but if we had those dudes up for a ride, we called the FAA in the simulator: Let the Feds fail them and let them sue the Feds for discrimination. Good luck on that.
12-20-2019 | 03:26 PM
#48
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 13,843
Likes: 1
From: FAA 'Flight Check'
Seriously? Isn't that the point of certificate actions? Falsification or intentional misrepresentation of pilot qualifications or logbooks? While I can't think of anything specific at the moment I do recall a couple of newsworthy articles about pilots who claimed certificates they did not have.
Isn't that what happened here? The FO presented a falseified training record that did not include all required PRIA records. I would expect (Hope?) the FAA would have done something if they had found out about this guys falsified history prior to this accident. Isn' the whole point of the FAA to ensure rules are followed by pilots and certificate holders?
Isn't that what happened here? The FO presented a falseified training record that did not include all required PRIA records. I would expect (Hope?) the FAA would have done something if they had found out about this guys falsified history prior to this accident. Isn' the whole point of the FAA to ensure rules are followed by pilots and certificate holders?
It seem that you don’t understand the actual situation here.
This is a Airline application/hiring issue.
Do you really want the FAA involve in the airline hiring process - having input whether you get that coveted job you hope to land someday?
12-20-2019 | 03:32 PM
#49
Line Holder
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,306
Likes: 44
His resume and application did not list employment with Air Wisconsin (April 20, 2012 through August 13, 2012) or CommutAir (May 3, 2011 through June 27, 2011).
When asked to explain any gaps in employment, the FO stated the following on his Atlas Air application: “There were time when I was furloaded [sp] and also went to college to attained [sp] degrees.” Air Wisconsin and CommutAir were not part of the PRIA requested information for the background checks conducted for Atlas Air on the FO.
Great job, HR. How is this application not immediately tossed in the trash?
When asked to explain any gaps in employment, the FO stated the following on his Atlas Air application: “There were time when I was furloaded [sp] and also went to college to attained [sp] degrees.” Air Wisconsin and CommutAir were not part of the PRIA requested information for the background checks conducted for Atlas Air on the FO.
Great job, HR. How is this application not immediately tossed in the trash?
12-20-2019 | 03:38 PM
#50
Line Holder
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,306
Likes: 44
Sadly this means that this is still going on today and DB has HUGE incentive to "miss" that someone didn't complete upgrade after looking at thousands of resumes over the past 20 years.... And when she does notice instead of calling the airline and just asking she can assume that the candidate's "house burned down during training".
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