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Med Jet Lear 35A down @ El Cajon/Gillespie

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Med Jet Lear 35A down @ El Cajon/Gillespie

Old 01-01-2022, 07:34 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by paulcg77 View Post
Flight nurses aren't first responders?
Depends. On a lear they are probably transporting a stable patient to a better/specialized facility for follow-on care. Or maybe just to the patient's home-town. There is no justification for incurring extra risk on that mission.

If it's an air-ambulance response to an accident site, that seems like a first-responder to me. Maybe not first-on-the-scene but they have the same time pressure... or somebody wouldn't have called for them in the first place.
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Old 01-01-2022, 10:36 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by TiredSoul View Post
Prescott didn’t choose his words very carefully and it came across like he suggested it.
I understood what he meant.
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Old 01-01-2022, 10:39 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by paulcg77 View Post
Flight nurses aren't first responders? Ok. I was responding to the picture posted of the four of them, taken by one of the flight nurses. I thought all RN's were first responders, but I admit, I don't work in this field so if I'm wrong, lo siento. My wife is a doctor and she used to be an AME flight nurse and I'm pretty sure she was classified as a first responder. And, you might not agree with my take on AME pilots but I said "perhaps" for a reason. It wasn't an accusation. Apologies if this offended you (sincerely).
In my first aid training, the first responder is the person that physically responds OR makes the decision for a medevac call, generally physically present at the site (as in, someone has to make a call). It could be police, EMTs, yourself, a friend, etc. You could think of it as "virtual" if you call 911 and they make a decision to send medevac, or you can think of yourself as the first responder. The helicopter was never referred to as the "first responder". Not to say it is without risk or not important...it's just that the decision for medevac has already been made when the helicopter shows up. That decision to bring the helicopter was the "first response" or involvement by authorities, emergency personnel, medical personnel, etc.

I guess the other way to think about it is that they could be the "first" physical medical/authorities/emergency response to an accident site, but that would be very rare IMO, they generally don't like to just show up somewhere with no evaluation of the situation, coordination, etc. This is usually where S&R, which is typically government organizations, may come, someone lost, remote crash, etc. If S&R is able to get to them, that's usually going to be how it goes down, with S&R then calling for medevac, possibly doing extraction, coordinating transfer. I doubt any EMS is going to accept a mission like that, it's not what they do.

Last edited by JamesNoBrakes; 01-01-2022 at 10:52 AM.
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Old 01-01-2022, 12:41 PM
  #34  
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I think they should be considered more like innocent victims in this crash.
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Old 01-01-2022, 02:19 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by TiredSoul View Post
I think they should be considered more like innocent victims in this crash.
That's fair. I had no idea calling flight nurses "first responders" would set off such a **** storm. I meant it as a term of respect, and I said it because my own wife used to be a flight nurse and was literally classified as a "first responder" as such. Whether they were first responders or not, I'm grateful they chose the career they did, as I'm grateful for all healthcare professionals and the often dirty, dangerous, unappreciated work they do so that others may live.
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Old 01-02-2022, 05:34 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by TiredSoul View Post
I think they should be considered more like innocent victims in this crash.
Correct! Innocent victims at the hands of pure incompetence! A perfectly good airworthy aircraft that was forced into a departure from controlled flight.

Technical and Non-technical Skills, Application of procedures, Problem Solving and Decision Making… out the window. Team Work Leadership along with Cockpit Gradient? Non-existent.


To those innocents…. RIP

Last edited by captjns; 01-02-2022 at 05:54 AM.
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Old 01-02-2022, 07:04 AM
  #37  
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In most states, a "first responder" is someone who is sent in response to a 911 call or similar emergency call for help, fire/police/ambulance.

some states expand this to include others, such as plain clothes federal agents, nurses, doctors.
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Old 01-02-2022, 07:44 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by JohnBurke View Post
They're not first responders.

I flew for four different medevac operations, and never found what you describe, to be the case.
first responders should either carry guns or carry siren.

If crew carry guns or lear jet equipment with siren then we consider them as first responders.
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Old 01-02-2022, 08:38 AM
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When you stop at a car crash alongside the road, to render assistance, you're the first responder.

A medical crew providing ACLS and other advanced life support enroute to an advanced care facility isn't a first responder. There are occasions when it's possible they might be, but rarely so.

Some years ago I waited at a rural airport for the first victim of a multi-casualty incident. Our crew had been picked up by the ambulance and taken to the clinic. They were on their way back to be loaded, and transported. The ambulance backed up to the aircraft, and I could see a lot of activity inside. The doors swung open, our head medic shouted for me to start tossing him trauma bags and gear. They'd used up what was on the ambulance, and they used up what we had. I was pulled into the ambulance to help. The ambulance ended up going back to the clinic. The patient couldn't be stabilized for transport. I believe that person perished.

The person was a first responder. The person stopped for a car wreck, and while attempting to help, was hit and run over by another car.

We were not first responders, despite being mired in the situation.

The nurses and medics on many of these flights hold more qualifications and more letters after their name than can scarcely fit on a business card. They're exceptionally qualified and certified.

Air ambulance may be called to the scene, in the case of rotor wing, and scene transports typically are more involved in stabilizing the patient than fixed wing transports, but in nearly all cases, the patient has already received initial first responder care which may range from chest compressions to pressure on a wound, to basic live support, even intermediate or higher care by law enforcement, fire, paramedics, EMT's, etc. For fixed wing transport, the patient may be moving between clinics or hospitals, or maybe delivered by ambulance directly from the scene; in either case, first responders have already done their part, and the fixed wing crew is transporting and providing enroute care, but not acting as a first responder.

Anyone can be a first responder, and given human nature, in emergencies, often anyone who can help, does. Frequently first responders have little or no training, but do whatever they can until services or personnel with more capability or qualification can be brought to the patient. Sometimes the first responder is a fire crew, sometimes a cop. I was involved in removing the roof of a vehicle and unable to cut a seat belt. A knife was handed me from behind; it came from a trucker, a first responder to the scene who was standing by to help any way he could. People are like that, and first responders come in all flavors from kids to qualified doctors and nurses. I've even been a first responder when riding as a passenger on a commercial flight, and several times I've been joined shortly after by a doctor or nurse...who was also a first responder. The Flight Attendants were first responders. Once that person was handed off to personnel at the gate, however, we were done, and those taking charge weren't first responders. Circumstances, sometimes qualifications, sometimes setting, dictates what constitutes a first responder. Seldom are medical flight crews first responders, though the nurses and medics who fulfill that critical role can be involved from the outset, on occasion. Typically the flight crew are those to whom the first responders hand off the patient, or whom receive the patient well after the first responders have done their part.

The flight nurses represent a very unique and distinct subset of the care chain for that patient. Once that flight takes off, the only resources and personnel for patient care are aboard. No one else can be pulled in, no more supplies or equipment obtained. During ground transport, services can meet the ambulance on the road, and in the hospital or clinic, often there are backups, spares, and extra personnel and supplies. In the air ambulance, it's all on those nurses and medics. In the case of each place I've worked, I'd trust my life to those people perhaps above anyone else, and I'd trust the life of my family, too. Without reservation, it takes a special kind of person to be a flight nurse or medic.
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Old 01-02-2022, 08:40 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by IFRDriver View Post
first responders should either carry guns or carry siren.

If crew carry guns or lear jet equipment with siren then we consider them as first responders.
But way OT now...
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