And they can't even blame a union for job protectionism. Just a very poor business decision.

The old line in the sand was... if it's a jet, it's mainline. The line should have been held there, period. Now the cat is out of the bag, and the arguement centers around seating capacity, on jets. The large turboprops seem to be ignored.

My opinion in that anything over 50 seats should be a mainline aircraft, jet or turboprop. Anything going over 500 mile legs should be a mainline aircraft.... I'm seeing Chicago to Nassau in "regional" routes for example.

As long as the idea of "scope exceptions" is a viable alternative for managements, they will never put these things were they belong. They will continue to reduce mainline fleet size across the board to be replaced by these large "regional" aircraft. Expect more of the Midwest business plan... just outright outsourcing the flying.

Part of the problem is all the seperate unions, each trying to protect just their pilot group. Many have provisions to protect their own flying, but I have yet to see anything that contractually prohibts a company from using their pilots to fly somebody elses routes. There is an "us" vs "them" issue going on as well... with the them being both management, and other pilot groups, especially when dealing with mainline/regional pilot group issues.

An example, RAH has in ther contract rates for the larger E series jets. Now, why on earth their union would ever agree to negotiate a pay rate, for a plane they didn't have at the time, and a plane that everybody agrees should be a mainline plane, is just mind boggling. The reality should be plain to anybody that if regionals keep getting larger and larger planes, eventually there will be no good mainline jobs left to go to, or to have career advancement. So, when they negotiate these types of things, they are shooting current and future pilots in the foot.

It's pretty much at that point now. If your at a regional, the chances of going to a mainline job are fairly slim compared to the old career progression path. So, for many, regionals will be their career... yet they keep allowing contract for larger planes at regional work rules and pay. It's a very short sighted ill thought out process... and we're all losing as a result.

I hear ya Mason. The regionals used to be a place to build time and then progress up. The problem is someone got it in their heads on the mainline side of the equation (not DAL but all mainline) that pay for training ($7K for Beech 1900 or $10K for EMB-120) for a job that paid $12K a year was justifiable because those guys were paying their dues just like the military guys paid theirs. Big mistake.

Because the pay never came up but technology sure got smaller and smaller and soon those commuters had turbofans attached to remakes of their turboprops for those "paying their dues" wages (Coex paid I think in the $20s/hr for ERJ-145 CA when those came out in 1997) and immediately every legacy carrier had the golden opportunity to provide not only jet service but high frequency jet service on routes that did not exist before.

Not to mention that the paying their dues attitude doesn't work either, these pilots are paying $50-$70K for training these days and F-16s flown by pilots paying their dues aren't going to replace DC9s, although that'd be cool and I'd sign up, especially for the single seat F-16s. And so we've got to stop treating them as a training ground because its not, these guys are fully capable of comptently flying a 737 in replacement of us. Its not something they want, but their employers will take larger and larger for less pay if offered and what else can a pilot do? They'll fly it, they can't scope themselves, thats our job.

And I am curious about a scope that was not only for seats but mileage. I wonder if that'd work, but the truth is a lot goes into what makes a route profitable and its not cut and dry and its not one size fits all on the solution. CASM isn't everything, RASM isn't either, margin is. Wherever you can maximize it you will, by whatever means necessary. I look at a route like ATL-PHF, 8 DCI flights and about 480 seats per day. Thats probably all the demand that route will hold with the stiff competition from AirTran, who started the route, and provides 4 of their 717s. We provide double frequency which is our advantage. Just replacing 8 DCIs with 3 MD88s/A320s might not be wise.

Because on a flight by flight comparison the revenue per seat mile minus the RJs pitiful cost per seat mile might be offset by a really good margin because of its frequency, better than 3 MD88s per day. So to the company, yeah the CASM sucks on an RJ but it makes its money on frequency. So its not about having the cheapest airplanes, its about the right airplane. So while I want to say scope mileage, I don't think it'd necessarily work but I wouldn't mind seeing it restricted to only 10% of DCI routes can go over 500 miles, or something like that. But this is also the problem, we let airlines and people get hooked on frequency provided by regionals and not mainline and we're stuck with it until we get some of the under MD88/73N/A319 size flying at mainline again.

I am making this up as I go. Can you tell? All I am saying is we got ourselves in this position as a pilot group and we're going to have to get creative to get out of it.

You are right!!!!!

ALPA national and DALPA need to stop the RJ ("b scale") growth in the United States. Legacy airline pilots need to own the flying of all aircraft 51 seats and above.

STOP the Roller-Coaster ride

in the airline pilot profession.

That needs to said again............and again, until our pilot group can realize that we need to have the mindset of taking our flying back. This is more important than a pay raise on the next contract.

Then again... regional airlines paying mainline rates for their jets would accomplish much the same thing and go a long way towards solving this problem...

Am I missing something here??? Food during a TARMAC delay? Hell SWA doesn't have food! Too funney. Freedom of the press It's a beautiful thing baby

I disagree!

Regional pilots will always look at their job as a stepping stone to a legacy carrier. They will fight for the upgrade .vs. the career pay scale and benefits.


ALPA National and DALPA need to provide the LEADERSHIP. Make decisions that benefit the future of the airline pilot profession.

APC is back up and running... I started to go though withdrawl, shaking and crying in the corner.

Hey guys,

I've forgotten. How do we get reimbursed for our Class 1 physicals? Does it happen automatically or do I need to fax in the receipt.

Thanks,
Buzz