The doctors I know DO NOT make anywhere near $16,000, so I say a RESOUNDING NO to you. The market for surgeons as you say, is dictating WAAAAAY more. I DO know pilots making about $16,000, and therefore I argue the market is dictating that number and has been for some time.

Shiny Jet Syndrome motivates people to work for less. That's a huge part of the problem; A WILLINGNESS to work for nothing. I am NOT making this up.

I agree that 121 FOs should comply with ATP mins for reasons of safety. A fresh 250 hour commercial goes against the very spirit and duty of 121 regulations in my mind. But I'm not sure if ATP mins alone would drive up pilot wages appreciably. Pilots are still going to be desperate to bolt for the regionals as soon as they get the ATP ticket.

Unless the government steps in, the market can afford to pay nothing to pilots. Do we need to look further than our current situation as evidence?

Whats kinda funny, is that pilots know that we'll make 20k for the first year of flying, might break 30k on your second year, and as an FO will top out around 35k, and then we're waiting on market conditions, the economy, and pure and simple "luck" to get an upgrade to make significantly more money, not to mention a livable wage finally.

If you went and found some med students, said, you'll make the same wages, and hopefully, if you're lucky, make good money (100k) eventually....i think most would turn around at the door, and apply to engineer school. But as Jerry Springer once said we "come in droves".

ATP mins would weed a LOT of people out. It would get rid of the "6 months to the right seat of an RJ" crowd. Many will still bolt for the regionals but there simply won't be as many pilots. Take away the shortcuts and you eliminate a lot of people right there. At the very least it would be a return to how things were in the 80s and 90s.

I made $25k my first year at Air Wisconsin, and was on track for $45k my second year.

While certainly not getting rich nor what the responsibility deserves, the compensation as an RJ FO isn't nearly as bad as you make it out to be.

Attitude and professionalism is what needs to change to improve safety not an ATP.

BULLSEYE...hit the nail right on the head

Let's take a look at excerpts from a few ads....

Freight Caravan:
Starting salary $37,500, 401k, profit sharing, Health/Dental/Life Insurance paid 100% for the
employee. Pay incentive for applicants with significant Caravan experience.
Minimum requirements:
Commercial license with Instrument rating
2,000 hours Total Time
500 hours Cross Country
100 hours Night
75 hours Instrument
Part 135 experience preferred

Freight Cessna 210 (upgrade to Barons)
Pilot Requirements: 1200 TT, 500 CC, 100 Night, 75 Instrument,
50 Actual Instrument.[B]
Pay varies with each run and will be anywhere between $23,400 and $43,600 annually for the first year pilot. Based on seniority and longevity with the company it is possible to make $51,480.00 annually flying a 210 or a Baron.
New pilot employees are paid during each day of ground and flight
training, and a $1,000.00 bonus is paid after the successful completion of the training and initial check ride.

Freight Caravan:
Cessna 208 Captains with a minimum of 1500 TT & 1,000 PIC. Starting salary $34,390


What do they all have in common? At or near ATP minimums and reasonable starting salaries. Why do these companies pay so much to fly boxes in a high performance single? Because the MUST to attract qualified pilots.


As long as the regs only require 250 hours, airlines can hire pilots with low time. Other than a federal minimum wage (unlikely), the only way to increase pilot pay across the board is by reducing the number of qualified pilots, and the only way to do that is through higher FAA mandated minimums. Considering that there has been no significant hiring over the last several months, I imagine everyone currently employed meets ATP minimums. So requiring an ATP would not drive anyone out (admittedly, some folks would have to take a checkride, but the expereince and skill should already be there).

If we pilots push for higher requirements to fly transport category aircraftm the results would be:
- greater safety (at the very least in the public's perception)
- a great reduction if not the end of paying for jobs
- higher pay to attract new hires (remember when a few regionals offered signing bonuses?)

An ATP shouldn't necessarily be a prerequisite to be considered for hire...but should be a requirement to fly the line.

If the minimum experience requirements were that to hold an ATP, and all 121 pilots were required to hold full type ratings, then a pilot could be hired with 1500tt and would exit their training (preferably an AQP program) with a type rating and their ATP.

Oh yea...get rid of all the jackasses that don't seem to give a crap enough to do what they're supposed to and you have a reasonably safe airline.

What is needed to improve pay is strong unions and pilots who realize that flying becomes a job the day you are told when and where you are flying.