Deny NAI failed, given final approval by DOT - Page 16

#151

JoeMerchant , 12-04-2016 06:45 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by contrails

Let's open this discussion up right here then.

You're proposing that the regionals are going to code share for foreign carriers.

So somewhere, orders need to be placed or jets need to come out of the desert to fly these things into supposed hubs such as FLL to feed NAI.

The regionals can barely staff what they are flying as it is. You think they can pull this off?

If anyone codeshares with a foreign carrier, it'd be more likely to be Spirit, Allegiant, jetBlue, et al.

The foreign carrier certainly isn't going to waste their time messing around with a regional airline for support when they have demonstrated they can barely support themselves.

The survivors in the regional business, like SkyWest, will probably do a mixture of at risk and code share with carriers who don't have scope clauses. How about 100 seaters with a mix of at risk and code share with domestic and foreign carriers without scope clauses. It is possible.

#152

CousinEddie , 12-04-2016 06:48 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMerchant

The CMR passengers were rerouted on Delta, ASA, ACA, and SkyWest. It wasn't "struck work". They were then shut down and Delta didn't do a damn thing for them. Thanks for pointing out yet another reason I don't care about this NAI issue. I walked the line with many fine CMR folks and they were hung out to dry....ALPA doesn't care about regional pilots.

Delta always had a path of least resistance, didn't they. Look, it was nasty for a long time both mainline and regional. It's been good at the mainline for a while, so I understand your frustration. It was destined to go in the toilet again, it always does. If guys think going to work for Kjos via OSM Aviation will be the ticket to a better life, God help them. Lorenzo is undoubtedly looking on with admiration.

#153

JoeMerchant , 12-04-2016 06:52 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by CousinEddie

No, some of you mainline and ALPA national types just don't realize how little the regional guys care about this issue. We have been dealing with it for decades and nobody cared. Now everyone is in a tizzy because of low cost competition. Welcome to our world. When you want to treat us like partners instead of servants, then we can talk....Until then enjoy the competition...

#154

animation , 12-04-2016 07:57 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMerchant

It's funny how mainline pilots forget or are detached from how regional guys have been treated. For example, when American Eagle Airlines refused to accept concessions AAG pretty much told them to f... off. They closed MIA, LGA, and LAX and gave the flying away to the lowest bidders. Essentially shrinking the airline in half.

#155

Window_Seat , 12-04-2016 08:37 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMerchant

With all the hiring going on at the legacies, why not get yourself a job over here? We are hiring if you haven't heard. 3,000 a year between the big three. You are Tier One right?

I was a regional pilot for almost a decade. I did not get **** on. Might be your attitude that's keeps you from coming to the big leagues. Will probably make 180k this year as a narrowbody FO. 60K just wouldn't cut it at NAI.

#156

sleeves , 12-04-2016 09:47 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMerchant

You going to take all those regional pilots when you take back that flying? You want the flying, but you probably don't want all the pilots who do the flying...

Yep, just flew with a new guy. I have been on both sides Joe.

#157

gloopy , 12-04-2016 09:59 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by NEDude

Sitting here in Europe I can tell you that is simply not true, Europe does not hate Norwegian. I have yet to meet a pilot here who hates their operation and based on the passenger growth and awards, passengers like them too. NAI, Ireland and the EU did decide to throw the decision to an arbitrator, as per the treaty. That is why the DOT finally caved, they admitted there was no legal grounds to deny because NAI is a properly certified EU airline and staffed according to EU labour laws.

If Trump reverses the decision and it does go to arbitration, the US can expect to lose the decision. If they do, and still deny NAI against the arbitration, what do you think will be the EU response? What happens when the EU begins restricting US airlines in return? Who will benefit from that?

The EU don't go to bat to defend a fake flag of convenience airline that only exists to circumvent labor markets. If they want to sue let them. They need the "open skies" every bit as much as we do and no way will they fall on their swords protecting those scabs.

#158

NEDude , 12-04-2016 10:32 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Drum

This NAI thing gets crushed by the new Admin. Then, it will be vetted thoroughly and once the actual practices (jumping loopholes) of NAI come to light, NAI will have 2 options:
1)fold
2)comply

My vote is on option 2. That's it, nothing more.

On what legal grounds?!

NAI has not violated the Open Skies treaty. The treaty does not prevent a European company applying for an AOC in another European country.

What everyone is confusing is that the labour provision in the Open Skies treaty (Article 17 bis) states that a carrier cannot use provisions of the treaty to undermine labour standards. So which provision of the treaty have they used to undermine labour standards? Please cite which provision exactly.

#159

intrepidcv11 , 12-05-2016 03:12 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMerchant

Funny how ALPA and mainline pilots get upset about this....Welcome to the regional hell you all helped create for your benefit. Sorry if I don't give a crap. These jobs will be filled by regional pilots you all crapped on for years.

My gawd this dude is still around. For some reason Joe hundreds of FO's you have flown with have moved on to better options. You on the other hand are a fine example of how not to manage an airline pilot career.

#160

SayAlt , 12-05-2016 03:33 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by nedude

nai has not violated the open skies treaty.

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Quote:
ual nyc alpa council 5 update on nai,

ladies and gentlemen of council 5,

by now, most of you know that the obama department of transportation (dot) has approved norwegian air internationals (nai) application for an air carrier permit. We are appalled by this decision and will do everything in our power to reverse it. An accurate assessment of the situation is in the dec 2nd mec master chairman update (see attached).

The nai flag of convenience scheme violates the u.s. / e.u. Open skies agreement, in that, it completely ignores the labor protections spelled out in it. Oddly, the european commission (executive body of the e.u. Responsible for upholding treaties) approved nai's application three years ago. Nai is a european carrier, which may put some money in its european owners' pockets, but it will not create the jobs as promised.

The sales pitch of how nai will create jobs on both sides of the atlantic is a complete sham. Sure, a handful airport jobs might be created, but in the long run this scheme sets the stage for an offshoring of the entire american aviation industry. It is analogous to saying that jobs were created in the u.s. Maritime industry just because someone was hired to clean the docks and turn off the lights after the last ships sailed away, permanently.

Our upa scope provisions currently prohibit united airlines from planting a flag outside the u.s. However; the approval of nai has set up a destructive precedent. We expect dozens of similar applications to be submitted, eventually forcing every u.s. Carrier to follow suit. The president of the united states can disapprove the dots decision within 60 days. While it was the obama administration that approved this ruling, despite labor's objections, our union will vigorously lobby the incoming trump administration to right this wrong. Be assured, your leadership will be working with our legislative affairs committee and alpa-international to reverse this absurd ruling. If we were in charge, we would immediately begin picketing at both the white house and trump tower to seek help.

Please stay tuned in the days and weeks ahead on this issue, and be prepared to act.

Fraternally,
glenn, mark, and phil

Right or wrong, no one here is interested in you defending flag-of-convenience in this forum. Stop it.