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10-09-2022 | 12:23 PM
#41
On Reserve
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
Real leverage is the entire pilot list signing a resignation letter effective (pick date) if we don’t have a contract. Tick Toc. No RLA needed. You would be surprised how fast things get done. The tank in the stock price alone would bring them to the table asap. That’s where I am, YMMV. Everyone is hiring and corporate jobs have surpassed what an FO makes here with better quality of life. If you are not willing to leave, the company owns you. We are where we are because leaving is “unthinkable”.
I’m ready to sign today, let’s pick our date.
10-09-2022 | 12:41 PM
#42
On Reserve
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
Exactly.
But our pilot group has repeatedly listened to the bullsh** and, possibly outright lies, from its “trusted” union leaders instead of seeking out and discovering the truth that could allow it to realize its own real power.
You’d think, just once in their career, a professional airline pilot would be willing to spend several hours or days trying to learn about the potential power they have access to via their membership in a labor union. But that’s simply not the case. It virtually never happens.
Instead, more often than not, when I bring up the subject of negotiations and how we could have leverage in negotiations, I get yawns in reply from my flying coheart. All these “conservative-minded” airline pilots who supposedly believe in “doing the work,” and “pulling themselves up by their bootstraps,” it turns out, are willing to let the terms of their professional lives be dictated to them by corporate overlords. Isn’t that kind of socialist-y or something?
Go over to the Alaska forum and read the “Will it Pass” thread for a rehashing of the basic logic behind how TA2, and every other substandard contract in our sad union history here has ended up passing. The essential arguments: “Let’s lock in the gainz,” “We’ll get ‘em next time,” “What? You don’t trust our union?”, “What are you willing to give up for that?”, and the ultimate expression of cuckoldness, “Why would the company give us that?”, are all the same as have been repeated here ad infinitum for decades by the overwhelming majority of our pilot group. It’s what we will hear again from our pilots as soon as a TA arrives.
So, ya, if history is at all any guide, I also have no faith in SWAPA securing us an industry-leading contract. They’re way too deep into their backward-a$$, labor-unions-ain’t-a-Texas-thing, no-fly line, trip pull echo chamber to get their collective sh** together.
But our pilot group has repeatedly listened to the bullsh** and, possibly outright lies, from its “trusted” union leaders instead of seeking out and discovering the truth that could allow it to realize its own real power.
You’d think, just once in their career, a professional airline pilot would be willing to spend several hours or days trying to learn about the potential power they have access to via their membership in a labor union. But that’s simply not the case. It virtually never happens.
Instead, more often than not, when I bring up the subject of negotiations and how we could have leverage in negotiations, I get yawns in reply from my flying coheart. All these “conservative-minded” airline pilots who supposedly believe in “doing the work,” and “pulling themselves up by their bootstraps,” it turns out, are willing to let the terms of their professional lives be dictated to them by corporate overlords. Isn’t that kind of socialist-y or something?
Go over to the Alaska forum and read the “Will it Pass” thread for a rehashing of the basic logic behind how TA2, and every other substandard contract in our sad union history here has ended up passing. The essential arguments: “Let’s lock in the gainz,” “We’ll get ‘em next time,” “What? You don’t trust our union?”, “What are you willing to give up for that?”, and the ultimate expression of cuckoldness, “Why would the company give us that?”, are all the same as have been repeated here ad infinitum for decades by the overwhelming majority of our pilot group. It’s what we will hear again from our pilots as soon as a TA arrives.
So, ya, if history is at all any guide, I also have no faith in SWAPA securing us an industry-leading contract. They’re way too deep into their backward-a$$, labor-unions-ain’t-a-Texas-thing, no-fly line, trip pull echo chamber to get their collective sh** together.
I can’t fathom why anyone is willing to accept any concessions whatsoever right now. Nor why we don’t already have a contract. I’m not a conspiracy guy, but something seems desperately wrong that the union hasn’t provided us with a no concession TA yet OR gotten us to the last steps of the RLA. Why do we care how the company tries to delay. We provide them with the contract text, they say “we need to review this” we say “great, give us an answer by next month or we vote to strike.”
I know most pilots are by nature conservative and risk-averse, but it’s sad and embarrassing to hear so many people complaining about how we’re not going to get what we deserve when they can’t take five minutes to write a single sentence email to their rep stating their preference to not accept any concessions and to hold a strike vote next week.
10-09-2022 | 01:06 PM
#43
gets time off
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,512
Likes: 93
And I just flew with a guy that believes in the balloon theory. Gotta give and take. When I explained I would vote no on any concessions and would be willing to shut the airline down. He said that's not how negotiations work. I said it is if we get 10,000 to go along with shutting this place down. I mentioned I have my strike fund, do you? Silence!
10-09-2022 | 08:38 PM
#45
Line Holder
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 210
Likes: 0
Stop spreading rumors. Just wait till the union tell you how little the company think of you the plumber. Also, quit going over to AS side. They have set a bottom. Very crappy bottom no less. But they seems to be happy with it. Especially the emoji toddler… now let our union go to work and get us a contract.
10-09-2022 | 09:16 PM
#46
On Reserve
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 185
Likes: 14
At this point all of this prognosticating about the new contract is like projecting who is going to win the next presidential election (pretty sure it is going to be “The Rock” by the way). Actually, our contract and the results may come in about the same time.
We all need to take a chill pill and let SWAPA do their job. When are really close to having a document in our hand, SWAPA will let us know. Until then we may as well be discussing if we are going to have a white Christmas in Miami this year.
We all need to take a chill pill and let SWAPA do their job. When are really close to having a document in our hand, SWAPA will let us know. Until then we may as well be discussing if we are going to have a white Christmas in Miami this year.
10-10-2022 | 09:50 AM
#47
Line holder
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,167
Likes: 226
From: Aircraft & Seat: old & hard
Real leverage is the entire pilot list signing a resignation letter effective (pick date) if we don’t have a contract. Tick Toc. No RLA needed. You would be surprised how fast things get done. The tank in the stock price alone would bring them to the table asap. That’s where I am, YMMV. Everyone is hiring and corporate jobs have surpassed what an FO makes here with better quality of life. If you are not willing to leave, the company owns you. We are where we are because leaving is “unthinkable”.
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-...031-story.html
10-10-2022 | 02:43 PM
#49
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,264
Likes: 0
It just highlights to me how badly we need to get our act together and force the company to give us an industry leading contract that includes an industry leading disability program. But, like I've said before, given our history, I have little hope of that actually happening.
Further evidence of our blundering became evident in the last few days. Apparently, without any prompting from the company nor anything gained in return from the company, SWAPA is spending our dues money and union resources to lobby Congress for a waiver for the MAX-7 to the requirement that all aircraft certified after the end of the year be equipped with an EICAS system.
The fear, on SWAPA's end is that, either:
- If Congress doesn't waive the requirement, the FAA will require a new type rating for the -7, OR
- Boeing will shelve the -7
If, in the case of 1. above, section 1.M. of our contract would be triggered, requiring a reopening of negotiations and prohibiting the flying of a new type until an agreement can be reached ("the Company shall not place such aircraft in revenue service, or implement as applicable until the above provisions are negotiated and agreed to by the Association").
If 1. occurred, that would be called "leverage."
But the much more likely scenario is that Boeing, unlikely to want to lose its orders for the MAX-7 and -10, will lavish dollars upon Congress for waivers for those aircraft instead of simply shelving them. My guess is that it will obtain the waivers because, as we all know, money makes the world, especially in DC, go around.
But if Boeing is unsuccessful in obtaining those waivers, then SWA either converts the orders to MAX-8's, picks up used -8's, decides to finally buy a new aircraft type, or, least likely, buys out a competitor.
Regardless, why are we spending union dues and union time trying to solve the company's problems for them for free? What are we getting in exchange for our efforts? Didn't the -800 SL teach us that goodwill is never returned at this place? Or are we, like a battered spouse, going back for another black eye?
Haven't we learned that it's just business?
10-10-2022 | 03:44 PM
#50
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 4,163
Likes: 144
I've actually been out on a medical for two or three months here and there over the years. I had been of the same mindset as you until I actually had to try to make it on our super-confusing web of disability programs and lack of benefits when you run out of sick time at this place.
It just highlights to me how badly we need to get our act together and force the company to give us an industry leading contract that includes an industry leading disability program. But, like I've said before, given our history, I have little hope of that actually happening.
Further evidence of our blundering became evident in the last few days. Apparently, without any prompting from the company nor anything gained in return from the company, SWAPA is spending our dues money and union resources to lobby Congress for a waiver for the MAX-7 to the requirement that all aircraft certified after the end of the year be equipped with an EICAS system.
The fear, on SWAPA's end is that, either:
If, in the case of 1. above, section 1.M. of our contract would be triggered, requiring a reopening of negotiations and prohibiting the flying of a new type until an agreement can be reached ("the Company shall not place such aircraft in revenue service, or implement as applicable until the above provisions are negotiated and agreed to by the Association").
If 1. occurred, that would be called "leverage."
But the much more likely scenario is that Boeing, unlikely to want to lose its orders for the MAX-7 and -10, will lavish dollars upon Congress for waivers for those aircraft instead of simply shelving them. My guess is that it will obtain the waivers because, as we all know, money makes the world, especially in DC, go around.
But if Boeing is unsuccessful in obtaining those waivers, then SWA either converts the orders to MAX-8's, picks up used -8's, decides to finally buy a new aircraft type, or, least likely, buys out a competitor.
Regardless, why are we spending union dues and union time trying to solve the company's problems for them for free? What are we getting in exchange for our efforts? Didn't the -800 SL teach us that goodwill is never returned at this place? Or are we, like a battered spouse, going back for another black eye?
Haven't we learned that it's just business?
It just highlights to me how badly we need to get our act together and force the company to give us an industry leading contract that includes an industry leading disability program. But, like I've said before, given our history, I have little hope of that actually happening.
Further evidence of our blundering became evident in the last few days. Apparently, without any prompting from the company nor anything gained in return from the company, SWAPA is spending our dues money and union resources to lobby Congress for a waiver for the MAX-7 to the requirement that all aircraft certified after the end of the year be equipped with an EICAS system.
The fear, on SWAPA's end is that, either:
- If Congress doesn't waive the requirement, the FAA will require a new type rating for the -7, OR
- Boeing will shelve the -7
If, in the case of 1. above, section 1.M. of our contract would be triggered, requiring a reopening of negotiations and prohibiting the flying of a new type until an agreement can be reached ("the Company shall not place such aircraft in revenue service, or implement as applicable until the above provisions are negotiated and agreed to by the Association").
If 1. occurred, that would be called "leverage."
But the much more likely scenario is that Boeing, unlikely to want to lose its orders for the MAX-7 and -10, will lavish dollars upon Congress for waivers for those aircraft instead of simply shelving them. My guess is that it will obtain the waivers because, as we all know, money makes the world, especially in DC, go around.
But if Boeing is unsuccessful in obtaining those waivers, then SWA either converts the orders to MAX-8's, picks up used -8's, decides to finally buy a new aircraft type, or, least likely, buys out a competitor.
Regardless, why are we spending union dues and union time trying to solve the company's problems for them for free? What are we getting in exchange for our efforts? Didn't the -800 SL teach us that goodwill is never returned at this place? Or are we, like a battered spouse, going back for another black eye?
Haven't we learned that it's just business?
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