WHACKMASTER

Bologna.
……

sailingfun

Not a bit, but stating you could double pilot costs and the airline would continue to function just fine is a bit of a reach. Honestly SW was a huge drag on my career under Herb. He kept a ruthless thumb on costs especially pilots. Under Herb SW pilots got about ⅔ of what the major airlines were paid. Every contract management threw SW in our faces. My first Captains job imploded with the creation of Delta Express where we matched SW pilot costs. Only the retirement of Herb and the events of 911 brought SW up to the big leagues. I would like you not only to match the best contracts but blow them away! Making stupid statements is not how you get there.

sailingfun

Herb sure felt different about that. Delta’s pilot CASM until the new contract in January was within a few percentage points of American, UAL and SW. Your CASM is however inflated by your average aircraft size.

Stitches

First, I haven’t seen anyone assert that SWA would continue to operate just fine at zero profit margin. I (and others) have repeated our unions 2019 claim that SWA could double pilot salaries and still maintain a positive margin. One data point worth mentioning is that Swa increased pilot pay by 50% for 2 months in the 2021-2022 winter and was still one of the first airlines to return to profitability.

Second, you are conflating pilot salary and costs. Just because Delta Express matched Southwest pay doesn’t mean it cost the same.

Lewbronski

So, yes, you are arguing your version of the "golden goose" argument - that if we demand too much, we risk "choking the golden goose." That argument has been made time and again over the years here at this place. Waterski and others have explained to you why your particular iteration of this claim falls short.

Caveman

How is it that SWA is more profitable (less debt/more cash) than Delta with a inflated pilot CASM?

Will Delta suddenly turn to unprofitable because of thier new increase pilot casm of 25-30%?

sailingfun

You are inverting what I posted. SW CASM on the 737 is lower than Delta’s. Delta’s overall pilot CASM is close because tgey have an overall larger fleet. If Delta wants to go head to head with SW on a route with 737’s they will have a higher CASM.
I did have one number wrong. Under Herb SW’s pilot CASM was about 50% of the majors.

waterskisabersw

So what you're saying is it WAS possible for us to double our pay (recognizing that pay is only a portion of pilot CASM).

Thanks for disproving your own point.

I'd still LOVE to see sources for any number of the claims you've made and people you've quoted.

Providing you get sources for the quotes, I'd love to see where the managers you're quoting sourced their information because like I said in my first retort to you, managers lie.

I put no stock in what a chief pilot, VP, director, CEO, or whoever said something to you or any of us during recurrent or negotiations, because they consistently lie about their ability to generate revenue and offset costs (and even how they account for cost in GAAP), as is evidenced by the fact that profit margins remain relatively unchanged no matter how "rich" a new contract may be.

Also regarding your statement about stage length and aircraft size etc affecting CASM and RASM, the industry agreed long ago on a standard that takes those factors into account and adjusts those numbers to provide a generally accurate standard measurement to allow for better comparison between airlines of different missions and types.

Furthermore, the LARGEST factor in outlier CASM figures is almost always rooted in longevity differences in work groups. That's why Jetblue, SWA, Frontier, Spirit, et al all had relatively lower CASM numbers (even adjusted) than the other majors for a time, and why they are now, or soon will be, in line with the rest of the industry once they become a mature company. Same thing goes for maintenance and other labor CASM contributors.

It's not quantum physics, or even calculus. It's basic arithmetic.

Uncle Jelly gets a bad rap for comparing pilots to plumbers, but he wasn't entirely wrong that the cost of a unit of labor is what it is, just like fuel. You adjust for those costs and try to find ways to increase the efficiency of those costs, but the cost remains the same.

Caveman

In summary. Pilot CASM has very little to do with an airlines profitability. All other supporting workgroups are compensated at “widebody” pay rates.

Should narrow body pilots stay at more economical hotels than widebody pilots?

Should they use more economical lodging transportation services?

usernamehere

I’m so glad our low CASM resulted in me not receiving a warn notice. Ohh wait….