Airtran/Southwest AIP in a nutshell
08-30-2011, 08:05 AM
#71
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: CA
Posts: 1,207
Kelly has definitely changed his tune about the 717 as of late. I think it is all tied into what he sees as a crumbling economy. It most definitely seems he is wanting to make a deal with Boeing Capital to return the 717's. It also seems he is wanting 737 replacements. Who knows how it will all shake out in the end, but it definitely seems that 6 months ago he was comfortable operating the 717's until the leases ran out, now not so much.
"It's a fine airplane, Kelly said, but Southwest's larger 737-700s and 737-800s can accomplish much the same task, and better.
Southwest was already talking to Boeing about future orders. Southwest had been pushing Boeing to come up with a more fuel efficient airplane, whether through an all new replacement for the 737s or with re-engining.
Since most of the AirTran's 717s are leased from Boeing, Southwest can talk to Boeing about taking the airplanes back as part of a larger deal. Kelly indicated that the future of the 717s is part of Southwest's discussions with Boeing."
And, it looks like the more fuel efficient 737 has arrived.
"Boeing will proceed with development of the re-engined 737 after its board of directors approved its launch based on order commitments for 496 aircraft from five airlines.
Boeing said that it has seen “overwhelming demand” for the new aircraft. It promised a fuel burn 4% lower than the Airbus A320neo.
The new 737-family will be powered by CFM International LEAP-1B engines."
"It's a fine airplane, Kelly said, but Southwest's larger 737-700s and 737-800s can accomplish much the same task, and better.
Southwest was already talking to Boeing about future orders. Southwest had been pushing Boeing to come up with a more fuel efficient airplane, whether through an all new replacement for the 737s or with re-engining.
Since most of the AirTran's 717s are leased from Boeing, Southwest can talk to Boeing about taking the airplanes back as part of a larger deal. Kelly indicated that the future of the 717s is part of Southwest's discussions with Boeing."
And, it looks like the more fuel efficient 737 has arrived.
"Boeing will proceed with development of the re-engined 737 after its board of directors approved its launch based on order commitments for 496 aircraft from five airlines.
Boeing said that it has seen “overwhelming demand” for the new aircraft. It promised a fuel burn 4% lower than the Airbus A320neo.
The new 737-family will be powered by CFM International LEAP-1B engines."
08-30-2011, 03:54 PM
#72
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: guppy CA
Posts: 5,171
Originally Posted by OscartheGrouch
BTW - Hey Andy!
Originally Posted by JohnDeere
I hope to never experience the 2nd furlough. The 1st one happened when aviation (at my level) paid so little that replacing the income wasn't hard. Today is a little different.
You never know what's around the corner which is why I don't recommend buying that Captain's house until after you've retired.
I remember several of my classmates shelling out big bux for McMansions. I was lucky; I was going through a divorce when I was hired by United in 2000. All I could afford was a cardboard box. It was a nice cardboard box, from a Fridgidaire side by side, if I recall correctly.
If I could survive this employment adversity, I know that anyone can. I'm not the brightest crayon in the box/sharpest knife in the drawer/brightest bulb in the pack ... you get the idea.
08-30-2011, 05:26 PM
#73
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: B737/Capt
Posts: 998
[QUOTE=Andy;1046828]Hey Oscar, hope all is well.
Andy,
First off, I now have two son-in-laws named Andy (one goes by Andrew).
Also, it sounds like you made your 20. So congrats! Something I will never have.
On another note I am still waiting for someone (ANYONE) to answer the questions I posed to JohnDeere yesterday.
Could it really be possible that the AIP that has now been turned down was meant to do harm intentionally? Or was it a proposal that had the needs of a different pilot group in mind while recognizing those that arrived first? Not mean-spirited just a different way of identifying the need to compromise. As I said before "no compromise, no marriage." Are the AT folks entitled to every single benefit of the AT/SWA deal without any compromise?
I will tell you again that I have tried to put myself in the AT position and believe I have come to understand some of their arguments and reasoning. If those who have categorized the AIP with descriptions like, "Abortion" and or with their favorite pseudo profanities would take a deep breath then a different perspective might be seen. Engaging in attacks (MIL vs. CIV, Officer/Enlisted, Fighter pilot/others, etc.) or making claims about SWA pilots being in debt (no other pilot group has those) don't help much.
Calm, rational thought might make one wonder what this "culture" thingy is that is talked about so much. Even Tsquare gave me a little sympathy about the loss of said culture and erosion of our work environment that appears to be a lost cause.
I will tell you that you have unified the SWA pilot group by turning down the proposal. We were arguing and having heated discussions prior to your MEC vote. Now we are becoming more and more focused. Many are now open to ALL options available to our pilot group. That is sad because those options that they now want SWAPA and management to explore are unpleasant. I too have begun to question whether this deal was really worth it. That Deere John letter is still swirling around in my mind.
Please spare me the "arrogance" arguments.
This industry breeds arrogance and creates egos that are not exclusive to one pilot group. Ten years ago the arrogance comments were pointed at other groups. SWA pilots are just the current target of opportunity.
I have corresponded with a few AT folks here on APC and believe me when I say --- I want this to work out for the best.
The Oscar (trollboy to some)
Andy,
First off, I now have two son-in-laws named Andy (one goes by Andrew).
Also, it sounds like you made your 20. So congrats! Something I will never have.
On another note I am still waiting for someone (ANYONE) to answer the questions I posed to JohnDeere yesterday.
Could it really be possible that the AIP that has now been turned down was meant to do harm intentionally? Or was it a proposal that had the needs of a different pilot group in mind while recognizing those that arrived first? Not mean-spirited just a different way of identifying the need to compromise. As I said before "no compromise, no marriage." Are the AT folks entitled to every single benefit of the AT/SWA deal without any compromise?
I will tell you again that I have tried to put myself in the AT position and believe I have come to understand some of their arguments and reasoning. If those who have categorized the AIP with descriptions like, "Abortion" and or with their favorite pseudo profanities would take a deep breath then a different perspective might be seen. Engaging in attacks (MIL vs. CIV, Officer/Enlisted, Fighter pilot/others, etc.) or making claims about SWA pilots being in debt (no other pilot group has those) don't help much.
Calm, rational thought might make one wonder what this "culture" thingy is that is talked about so much. Even Tsquare gave me a little sympathy about the loss of said culture and erosion of our work environment that appears to be a lost cause.
I will tell you that you have unified the SWA pilot group by turning down the proposal. We were arguing and having heated discussions prior to your MEC vote. Now we are becoming more and more focused. Many are now open to ALL options available to our pilot group. That is sad because those options that they now want SWAPA and management to explore are unpleasant. I too have begun to question whether this deal was really worth it. That Deere John letter is still swirling around in my mind.
Please spare me the "arrogance" arguments.
This industry breeds arrogance and creates egos that are not exclusive to one pilot group. Ten years ago the arrogance comments were pointed at other groups. SWA pilots are just the current target of opportunity.I have corresponded with a few AT folks here on APC and believe me when I say --- I want this to work out for the best.
The Oscar (trollboy to some)
Last edited by OscartheGrouch; 08-30-2011 at 05:36 PM.
08-30-2011, 06:23 PM
#74
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: guppy CA
Posts: 5,171
Oscar, between enlisted, AF Academy, active duty, guard, and reserve, I hit ~21 yrs active duty over more than 30 years. With my guard/reserve time, there was another 2 1/4 yrs toward active duty retirement added in. When the dust settled, I survived 7+ years of furlough (so far) as well as can be expected.
Life hands you a lemon and you can either make lemonaid or stick a glock in your mouth. I'm not going to tell you that I didn't consider both paths.
As far as the SWA/AT show, I'll get to watch that again with my combined company as UAL and CAL pilots duke it out. Fortunately, it won't effect me much. I'm a junior pizzant in the entire show.
Life hands you a lemon and you can either make lemonaid or stick a glock in your mouth. I'm not going to tell you that I didn't consider both paths.
As far as the SWA/AT show, I'll get to watch that again with my combined company as UAL and CAL pilots duke it out. Fortunately, it won't effect me much. I'm a junior pizzant in the entire show.
08-30-2011, 10:32 PM
#77
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: Speaking French
Posts: 385
Originally Posted by JohnDeere
Thanks Rolf. I would ask you to contact YOUR union and tell them how to get this done. So far, they are running a bit overconfident.
Hostility? You mean like your pilots and flight attendants cornering our folks and harassing them? Or your pilots walking away when one of us tries to say hello? That sort of hostility?
I've been physically threatened by one of your co-workers. I've been cut off in the taxi lane (after ATC told SW to give way.) None of that matters in the long run. It just paints a very poignant picture of "culture".
The thing you don't want to underestimate is how accustomed Airtran pilots are to being the underdog. Some of us are going on 20 years as the underdog.
What you perceive as my hostility is actually frustration. Many of your own have already decided how this is going to turn out. Too bad for us all.
Hostility? You mean like your pilots and flight attendants cornering our folks and harassing them? Or your pilots walking away when one of us tries to say hello? That sort of hostility?
I've been physically threatened by one of your co-workers. I've been cut off in the taxi lane (after ATC told SW to give way.) None of that matters in the long run. It just paints a very poignant picture of "culture".
The thing you don't want to underestimate is how accustomed Airtran pilots are to being the underdog. Some of us are going on 20 years as the underdog.
What you perceive as my hostility is actually frustration. Many of your own have already decided how this is going to turn out. Too bad for us all.
As for culture, I had an interesting talk awhile back with a really senior SWA captain. Only talked to him for about 15 mins, but he seemed like a really good/intelligent guy. He said the culture has changed. The same can do, lets have a good time attitude has changed to one of entitlement and arrogance. He also talked about a lot of waste. Like having more CP/Asst. CPs than was necessary sitting around doing nothing, making mucho dinero.
Before some SW pilot jumps down my throat, no I never interviewed at SW and yes I wish I made what you make$$$
08-30-2011, 11:18 PM
#78
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: 737n/FO
Posts: 667
[QUOTE=OscartheGrouch;1046850]
Oscar,
I have a lot of friends at SWA and I hope you don't lose what you have. We want you to get integrated as quickly as possible because this actually eliminates a lower cost competitor. No matter what consider yourself (SWA as a company) you are no longer a low cost carrier in terms of your average fares. If this doesn't get resolved fairly quickly AND there is an SLI with AT pilots ending up as members of SWAPA it could get ugly very quickly - AT will end up as 25% of your new list - that could destroy your culture pretty quickly if most of them feel they are treated unfairly OR if most of SWAPA feels as if AT got too good of a deal. While you're only looking at whether AT PILOTs get a windfall AT as a company acquisition brings a LOT of benefits to SWA or GK and the SWA board wouldn't have made the purchase.
Good luck - you're going to need it.
Originally Posted by Andy
Hey Oscar, hope all is well.
Andy,
First off, I now have two son-in-laws named Andy (one goes by Andrew).
Also, it sounds like you made your 20. So congrats! Something I will never have.
On another note I am still waiting for someone (ANYONE) to answer the questions I posed to JohnDeere yesterday.
Could it really be possible that the AIP that has now been turned down was meant to do harm intentionally? Or was it a proposal that had the needs of a different pilot group in mind while recognizing those that arrived first? Not mean-spirited just a different way of identifying the need to compromise. As I said before "no compromise, no marriage." Are the AT folks entitled to every single benefit of the AT/SWA deal without any compromise?
I will tell you again that I have tried to put myself in the AT position and believe I have come to understand some of their arguments and reasoning. If those who have categorized the AIP with descriptions like, "Abortion" and or with their favorite pseudo profanities would take a deep breath then a different perspective might be seen. Engaging in attacks (MIL vs. CIV, Officer/Enlisted, Fighter pilot/others, etc.) or making claims about SWA pilots being in debt (no other pilot group has those) don't help much.
Calm, rational thought might make one wonder what this "culture" thingy is that is talked about so much. Even Tsquare gave me a little sympathy about the loss of said culture and erosion of our work environment that appears to be a lost cause.
I will tell you that you have unified the SWA pilot group by turning down the proposal. We were arguing and having heated discussions prior to your MEC vote. Now we are becoming more and more focused. Many are now open to ALL options available to our pilot group. That is sad because those options that they now want SWAPA and management to explore are unpleasant. I too have begun to question whether this deal was really worth it. That Deere John letter is still swirling around in my mind.
Please spare me the "arrogance" arguments. This industry breeds arrogance and creates egos that are not exclusive to one pilot group. Ten years ago the arrogance comments were pointed at other groups. SWA pilots are just the current target of opportunity.
I have corresponded with a few AT folks here on APC and believe me when I say --- I want this to work out for the best.
The Oscar (trollboy to some)
Andy,
First off, I now have two son-in-laws named Andy (one goes by Andrew).
Also, it sounds like you made your 20. So congrats! Something I will never have.
On another note I am still waiting for someone (ANYONE) to answer the questions I posed to JohnDeere yesterday.
Could it really be possible that the AIP that has now been turned down was meant to do harm intentionally? Or was it a proposal that had the needs of a different pilot group in mind while recognizing those that arrived first? Not mean-spirited just a different way of identifying the need to compromise. As I said before "no compromise, no marriage." Are the AT folks entitled to every single benefit of the AT/SWA deal without any compromise?
I will tell you again that I have tried to put myself in the AT position and believe I have come to understand some of their arguments and reasoning. If those who have categorized the AIP with descriptions like, "Abortion" and or with their favorite pseudo profanities would take a deep breath then a different perspective might be seen. Engaging in attacks (MIL vs. CIV, Officer/Enlisted, Fighter pilot/others, etc.) or making claims about SWA pilots being in debt (no other pilot group has those) don't help much.
Calm, rational thought might make one wonder what this "culture" thingy is that is talked about so much. Even Tsquare gave me a little sympathy about the loss of said culture and erosion of our work environment that appears to be a lost cause.
I will tell you that you have unified the SWA pilot group by turning down the proposal. We were arguing and having heated discussions prior to your MEC vote. Now we are becoming more and more focused. Many are now open to ALL options available to our pilot group. That is sad because those options that they now want SWAPA and management to explore are unpleasant. I too have begun to question whether this deal was really worth it. That Deere John letter is still swirling around in my mind.
Please spare me the "arrogance" arguments.
This industry breeds arrogance and creates egos that are not exclusive to one pilot group. Ten years ago the arrogance comments were pointed at other groups. SWA pilots are just the current target of opportunity.I have corresponded with a few AT folks here on APC and believe me when I say --- I want this to work out for the best.
The Oscar (trollboy to some)
I have a lot of friends at SWA and I hope you don't lose what you have. We want you to get integrated as quickly as possible because this actually eliminates a lower cost competitor. No matter what consider yourself (SWA as a company) you are no longer a low cost carrier in terms of your average fares. If this doesn't get resolved fairly quickly AND there is an SLI with AT pilots ending up as members of SWAPA it could get ugly very quickly - AT will end up as 25% of your new list - that could destroy your culture pretty quickly if most of them feel they are treated unfairly OR if most of SWAPA feels as if AT got too good of a deal. While you're only looking at whether AT PILOTs get a windfall AT as a company acquisition brings a LOT of benefits to SWA or GK and the SWA board wouldn't have made the purchase.
Good luck - you're going to need it.
08-30-2011, 11:36 PM
#79
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
Originally Posted by Boeing7XX
Hey John Deere, Do you have an application on file at Southwest? Have you ever applied at Southwest?
For me, yes I did apply to Southwest along with a number of other carriers. I also told Southwest "Sorry, I cannot do that as I have accepted employment elsewhere."
08-31-2011, 04:26 AM
#80
Line Holder
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 737
Posts: 83
"I will tell you that you have unified the SWA pilot group by turning down the proposal. We were arguing and having heated discussions prior to your MEC vote. Now we are becoming more and more focused. Many are now open to ALL options available to our pilot group. That is sad because those options that they now want SWAPA and management to explore are unpleasant. I too have begun to question whether this deal was really worth it. That Deere John letter is still swirling around in my mind."
Above is quoted:
What are the "unpleasant" options? We are on the street? So if I read correctly---the infraction is turning down the proposal. So the options are not---hey, maybe we both can figure this out. Hey, let's see what went wrong, etc. No---the penalty is immdediately "unpleasant options".
Above is quoted:
What are the "unpleasant" options? We are on the street? So if I read correctly---the infraction is turning down the proposal. So the options are not---hey, maybe we both can figure this out. Hey, let's see what went wrong, etc. No---the penalty is immdediately "unpleasant options".
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