Oh I can imagine 3 round trips FLL TPA a day. Or 4 day pairings with 18 legs. Or never flying longer than 500 miles.

And it takes time and brainpower to bring a new frame on property. Proving runs, LCA program, mx program etc etc. These guys can’t get the scheduling phones manned or anticipate known summer weather patterns, I think they’d have their hands full getting a new frame here.

My bet is they’ll keep adding 320’s 3-5 at a time.

I don’t know when people are going to realize we already fly regional jet type routes. 80% of the east coast flying is less than 2 hours.

An A220 would not be relegated to 45 minutes block shuttle duties, that’s now where it makes money. It will do the same routes we already do on a 319 but burn less gas. It will make seasonal routes profitable to operate for more time. It can do long and thin routes between our vacation cities like MSY and FLL and MCO and places like Des Moines and Burlington. Why? because it burns less gas. If you think just because it’s a “glorified RJ” that it will be stuck puddle jumping sub 500 mile routes, you don’t really understand this plane’s niche in the market.

Some of you need to do some research on the A220-300. It’s not a regional jet at all. Can hold up to 160 pax single class.

Scope relief can turn anything into an RJ overnight. Let’s hope the North American unions don’t give up scope.

Exactly. This airplane provides “optionality.” It’s so versatile it can fly short or longer flights interchangeably - and more profitably than the A319. The A220-300 could easily fly a few short East Coast sectors and then FLL-PDX/SEA/LAX/BUR/SAN with 150-160 pax. This is why David Neeleman (JB founder) just ordered 60 A220-300s for his new Moxy start-up. This type of airplane opens up a lot of profitable route pairings.

I probably beat this horse to death before signing but our scope allows this. Capacity Purchase Agreements or Pro-rate agreements are defined as codeshare which is 100% allowed without limit and at any sized aircraft. If Skywest got A220s or A320s or 777s for that matter and spirit wanted to contract out in a CPA to them they could. Our only aircraft size limitations are in the event of a merger and what allow them to keep a separate seniority list.

Codesharing may not be super profitable in a traditional sense but CPAs fall under codeshare in our contract.

Vastly vastly improved scope over the two pages we had before but it has a gapping hole in this respect. But hey they haven’t done it yet so it’s not worth protecting, right?

I like the A220 and I like any new plane that is flown by spirit pilots on the spirit seniority list. Otherwise if it’s painted yellow and it’s not us it’s a piece of garbage and so are the guys up front.

I don’t like the A220 but I can sure agree to the last part of that last paragraph...I like any airplane that’s painted yellow. Any A220, A330, B737 or even if we got DC-10’s

Delta’s even starting SEA-ATL using the A220:

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/airlineroute/285624/delta-adds-a220-seattle-atlanta-service-from-june-2020/

Again, a very versatile airplane. You won’t see a similar-sized 717 flying that route.

Hub to hub with a 100 seat airplane? I get what you’re saying about flexibility but there’s really not that many “missions” specific to the A220 that Delta has exploited so far. For slot restricted airports it doesn’t make such sense and for a much cheaper price you can get a used 319 to do the same thing. Fancy airplane but I don’t I see the appeal really.

319s are going the way of the dodo bird. Like it all you want, it burns way too much gas for what it does.

Well that depends on how cheap you can get them. If I have to fly the A220 for 20 years to break even on the gas then I’d say it was worth it. That doesn’t even include the cost of adding another fleet type and all the associated expenses with it.

Comes down to fuel. The red eye connection between hubs might sell low, but necessary to connect onward passengers to international flights etc.

100 on a fuel miser A220 > 100 on a 757

I wonder if they have an A319NEO

Google 319NEO? Answer yes, zero orders from airlines.

I had heard from management during a crew news session the 321 costs $5m more than a 319.

So for $5m you get like 50% more seats for a what, 15% increase in fuel?

The only reason Delta and JetBlue bought the CSeries is because they paid 70% off list @ $25m a copy.

Yeah, I guess the 20% improved efficiency, the ability to fly either short hops or 3,000 miles on longer/thinner routes profitably and the vastly improved passenger ergonomics (large bins, big windows providing more light and preferred 2x3 seating) meant nothing... Sure, price is a factor, but Delta won’t negotiate if it can’t get a great deal and the manufacturers know it. Delta buys in bulk and it will take risk with launch orders (Delta also wants to be the launch order for the proposed 797).

Delta, JB, Air Canada and David Neeleman (new airline start-up Moxy) ordered the A220/CSeries because it is an innovative game changer that can squeeze profits out of competitive or new routes. So, I take it you didn’t read this article that provides some great insight:

https://airwaysmag.com/airlines/analysis-airbus-a220-is-killing-it-at-delta/

Air France is also rumoured to place a big 70 plane order for the A220.

I guess, efficiency or not, I just don't see us ordering 100 planes that are that small, even the 300 series. It does look like a great replacement for the 319 but probably not worth the cost of another fleet type? And I'm kind of thinking since the airplane is gaining popularity the deals are not as good as they used to be.

Guess we'll know in Aug or Sept.. Whatever they order it'll be better than a merger or ordering nothing.

You guys are spinning your wheels arguing about the A220. It’s going to be a 737max order. The writing is on the wall

After the MAX debacle, you could argue having a single fleet type could be risky going forward. A lot of single-fleet airlines (including SWA) are at least reconsidering that strategy. If new fleet types are ultra-efficient, they could potentially pay for themselves in terms of new-fleet entry costs.

Do you want to know why JB chose the A220? This article offers a good explanation (including the all-important decision factors):

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...e-a220-450121/

It's a pretty insightful article. Having a dual fleet can be a good thing depending upon the routes flown. No doubt cost is a factor, but JB was looking at the A220 more strategically as the article describes.

Why would they order a plane that's built on an ancient foundation, with a stigma that will stick with it forever, and does the same exact job as what we have now...with far less comfort? Yeah...cost, but Boeing with its arrogance isn't gonna give these things away, even after all the bull$h1t.

I just don't see it happening. An entirely new type to do the same exact job as a NEO. The A220 on the other hand opens new doors.

American does hub to hub LAX-JFK with a 108 seat 321.

You know for a fact they (Boeing) aren’t going to offer an awesome deal to spirit?

If there’s a US carrier that could do a big MAX order, it’s Spirit. You think your average Spirit customer knows what plane they’re on? They’re there because it’s cheap cheap cheap. Which is fine.

Boeing just sold 200 737-MAX airplanes to IAG (British Airways/Iberia/Aer Lingus/Vueling/Level parent company) to the surprise of everyone at the Paris Air Show. So, I assume Boeing will be offering Spirit an awesome deal at some point! Boeing would love to displace Airbus at Spirit, and 130 of the 200 MAX airplanes for IAG will be used to replace the entire 130-airplane Airbus fleet of Vueling (a Spanish/Italian LCC). Boeing could offer Spirit the full spectrum of MAX airplanes - the 7,8,9 and 10. SWA already has orders for the 737-7 MAX at the lower end of seating capacity.

So, it is possible at the right price! :cool:

I'm sure Boeing has made its offer at this point. If we were going to switch fleets, this company would not be scouring the market for A320 lease returns like it is right now.

Not sure of the time frame or details involved but why wouldn’t Spirit grab all those Airbuses that are going to be replaced by the max order IAG made?

The way I read that is 130 Airbii might be on the market soon. Which leads us to...

I agree it is plausible...

This makes a lot of sense. Why would we be gleaning A320s from here and there and everywhere if we were going to go dual fleet? Presumably we would be going dual fleet because of a massive cost incentive per airframe so it would be more cost effective to use that cash to buy more of cheap airframe X.

great point

Perhaps because our shareholders expect the growth that management has promised?

Assume for the moment that the order is for the 737, and eventually we will be all 737, it won’t happen overnight.

Entry of service program, instructor training, full type ratings, and initially a small 737 fleet means that to maintain growth with new routes and frequency, there will be a need for further 320 airframes for a certain amount of time.

My point isn’t to advocate that we are better off changing fleets, or even that is what we are certain to do... but I wouldn’t base long term strategy predictions for orders off us sourcing additional 320’s in order to spur short term growth.

Folks at HQ seemed pretty confident that even if it’s a Boeing order it won’t be a full fleet replacement.

Yea that's where i'm at. I could be perfectly wrong but I don't know of any low cost carrier that has had almost 200 airplane ordered/on property that has then gone and done a complete fleet swap. Heck I think EasyJet was only at 50 airframes or so when they switched to Airbus from Boeing.

If they mixed the fleets I’d suspect they’d swap out CEO’s for Max’s and keep the NEO’s. That’s my out of left field WAG.

Not exactly 200 airframes, but IAG’s Vueling Airlines (Spanish/Italian LCC) is replacing roughly 120 Airbuses with a mix of 737-8 and 737-10 MAX airplanes (out of 200 ordered by IAG). That will be a complete fleet swap for Vueling.

Interesting question just came up in my head whilst perusing the contract. The A321 override applies to all Airbus pilots. Does the A220 qualify under this section?

My guess

Union says yes

Company says no

Arbitrator decides all.

I am almost certain that if the A220 comes on property, this will be the case... Battles the Union should be prepping for...

What does the “A” stand for infront of the 220?...