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It’s NOT free!! It’s hard fought in negotiations. Further it’s part of your compensation. You earn it for being a professional. I suggest you pull off your rose colored glasses and be prepared for how this company negotiates.Originally Posted by CAirBear
With 15% free money in a DC,
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Calm yourself. I don’t know what else you call it when there is absolute ZERO personal contribution required to receive this money.Originally Posted by dualinput
It’s NOT free!! It’s hard fought in negotiations. Further it’s part of your compensation. You earn it for being a professional. I suggest you pull off your rose colored glasses and be prepared for how this company negotiates.
This is not a match % (like 99% of corporate America). Don’t contribute? No free money with our lousy 3-5% match.
If you receive a benefit like this, that, again, does not require you to contribute even $1, I don’t know what to call it other than what it is. It is an incredible benefit.
Anyhow - to the OP. Deadstick said it better than I think anyone could on the other thread.
“If you love your ULCC job, you’ll love the legacy job as well. If you’re unhappy at your ULCC, you’ll probably also be unhappy at the legacy.”
I think this should be stickied on the top of every single thread about this topic. Extremely well said.
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This is not a match % (like 99% of corporate America). Don’t contribute? No free money with our lousy 3-5% match.
If you receive a benefit like this, that, again, does not require you to contribute even $1, I don’t know what to call it other than what it is. It is an incredible benefit.
Anyhow - to the OP. Deadstick said it better than I think anyone could on the other thread.
“If you love your ULCC job, you’ll love the legacy job as well. If you’re unhappy at your ULCC, you’ll probably also be unhappy at the legacy.”
I think this should be stickied on the top of every single thread about this topic. Extremely well said.
We don’t compare ourselves to 99% of corporate America. We compare ourselves to other narrow body pilots in this country. Same reason Ted doesn’t compare his compensation to us when he negotiates for his.Originally Posted by CAirBear
Calm yourself. I don’t know what else you call it when there is absolute ZERO personal contribution required to receive this money.This is not a match % (like 99% of corporate America). Don’t contribute? No free money with our lousy 3-5% match.
If you receive a benefit like this, that, again, does not require you to contribute even $1, I don’t know what to call it other than what it is. It is an incredible benefit.
Anyhow - to the OP. Deadstick said it better than I think anyone could on the other thread.
“If you love your ULCC job, you’ll love the legacy job as well. If you’re unhappy at your ULCC, you’ll probably also be unhappy at the legacy.”
I think this should be stickied on the top of every single thread about this topic. Extremely well said.
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Making logical sense here is not permitted. The OP obviously doesn’t understand the fight we went through to make the gains we did in 2018. The same fight we’re going to have to fight in 2022…er 2025🤦♂️Originally Posted by dualinput
We don’t compare ourselves to 99% of corporate America. We compare ourselves to other narrow body pilots in this country. Same reason Ted doesn’t compare his compensation to us when he negotiates for his.
My point was very simple.
Now that DC % is nearly identical at both ULCCs now (except Allegiant with only a match - ULCCs currently max out at 15% vs 16% at legacies).
Pilots who have long careers at either outfit are going to BOTH retire extremely extremely comfortably.
I didn’t think this was that hard to understand, but I guess I’m not surprised either.
Yet again, I’ll leave you with this:
Darkside said it better than anyone -
If your happy at your ULCC you’ll probably be happy at a Legacy. If your not happy you probably won’t be happy making a switch.
Now that DC % is nearly identical at both ULCCs now (except Allegiant with only a match - ULCCs currently max out at 15% vs 16% at legacies).
Pilots who have long careers at either outfit are going to BOTH retire extremely extremely comfortably.
I didn’t think this was that hard to understand, but I guess I’m not surprised either.
Yet again, I’ll leave you with this:
Darkside said it better than anyone -
If your happy at your ULCC you’ll probably be happy at a Legacy. If your not happy you probably won’t be happy making a switch.
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I am in the same boat. Junior captain entertaining a move to UA. The NK crews are great but there is really no schedule flexibility on reserve. Once everyone returns to profitability, profit sharing is something else to consider. Will Spirit be able to attract and retain employees (not just pilots)? Yeah, we all get a nice 401K but that is now standard at this level in aviation. It is not an easy decision and, at the very least, worth putting some real thought into depending on your age and where you live or want to liveOriginally Posted by GatorFly
I’m a junior NK captain and I’m considering UA. I’m having a hard time finding actual facts since NK guys assume many things about UA and some UA guys I’ve talk to are not painting the full picture. Regardless of what you read on this forums, each personal experience with one company or the other will be biased based on that person’s particular life situation. It’s hard to compare (in a practical manner) if you haven’t worked for both companies and more importantly: how (i.e. commuter vs short drive, etc)
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If I lived in a UA base and had at least 20 years left I would be hard pressed not to jump on a UA offer. To each their own though.Originally Posted by Tjamaica
I am in the same boat. Junior captain entertaining a move to UA. The NK crews are great but there is really no schedule flexibility on reserve. Once everyone returns to profitability, profit sharing is something else to consider. Will Spirit be able to attract and retain employees (not just pilots)? Yeah, we all get a nice 401K but that is now standard at this level in aviation. It is not an easy decision and, at the very least, worth putting some real thought into depending on your age and where you live or want to live
Gotta get the poke if you want UA. In that case eat your heart out.
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Most airlines have more CAs than FOs (roughly 55-45 ratio) because CAs are less productive (more vacation time, more soft time, more LCA/OE duties, more sick leave (although FMLA may be changing the latter) and right now NK probably has a ballpark of 1400 CAs. In 2027, 1160 of those will still be around against a 2027 requirement for roughly 2800 CAs implying 1640 upgrades between now and then. That would be enough upgrades for all of the current 1300ish FOs and pretty much everyone hired before 2022 - all assuming NK actually makes its growth projections. After that further upgrades would be limited to replacement of attrition at a rate of ~50 CAs a year unless there was continuing new growth, which though that was averaging 15-17% per year prepandemic certainly can’t continue indefinitely.
There actually may be faster upgrades if the attrition from hiring of NK junior people by other airlines resumes. While HR does their best to choose people actually committed to a career at NK, first year pay really isn’t all that competitive with many majors and many of the legacies - with much older pilot groups are going to be retiring 6-7% a year in the near future. Convincing some people to give up a year or two NK seniority to jump ship somewhere else for more money and the same or better career progression is gonna happen, causing quicker upgrades to those behind them. And, as the commenter above mentions, a lot of people are content to hang out as a senior FO - pretty much in charge of their own schedule.
So, Mr. Ex, you're also clairvoyant. This is some pretty solid logic and it's being backed up 6 months later with these realities. Nice work.Originally Posted by Excargodog
NK just updated their APC profile and now list 163 aircraft and 2681 pilots, for an average of 16 pilots per aircraft. Normally (prepandemic) NKs utilization rate has exceeded 12 hours per aircraft per day and the ability of lineholders to drop to zero requires a higher number of pilots per aircraft than some airlines. The same profile is predicting about 293 aircraft in the fleet by 2027. That would imply about 4700 pilots by that time. According to Aerocrew News, NK will be retiring about 30-35 pilots a year in that timeframe climbing to about 45 a year thereafter. Adding in medical attrition (hey there’s a reason for that own occupation LTD insurance) about 240 guys/gals on the seniority list right now - most of them Captains - will be gone by the end of 2027.Most airlines have more CAs than FOs (roughly 55-45 ratio) because CAs are less productive (more vacation time, more soft time, more LCA/OE duties, more sick leave (although FMLA may be changing the latter) and right now NK probably has a ballpark of 1400 CAs. In 2027, 1160 of those will still be around against a 2027 requirement for roughly 2800 CAs implying 1640 upgrades between now and then. That would be enough upgrades for all of the current 1300ish FOs and pretty much everyone hired before 2022 - all assuming NK actually makes its growth projections. After that further upgrades would be limited to replacement of attrition at a rate of ~50 CAs a year unless there was continuing new growth, which though that was averaging 15-17% per year prepandemic certainly can’t continue indefinitely.
There actually may be faster upgrades if the attrition from hiring of NK junior people by other airlines resumes. While HR does their best to choose people actually committed to a career at NK, first year pay really isn’t all that competitive with many majors and many of the legacies - with much older pilot groups are going to be retiring 6-7% a year in the near future. Convincing some people to give up a year or two NK seniority to jump ship somewhere else for more money and the same or better career progression is gonna happen, causing quicker upgrades to those behind them. And, as the commenter above mentions, a lot of people are content to hang out as a senior FO - pretty much in charge of their own schedule.
