Originally Posted by dualinput (Post 3547099)

You get what you negotiate. Keep voting yes to industry trailing contracts and you’re right. Same job, same airplane, less infrastructure and support. We should actually make more.

Originally Posted by Justabusdriver1 (Post 3547202)

I’m not advocating for a huge pay gap like a select few on here seem to insinuate those who are trying to approach this with an open mind are. I can approach this an accept less given our work rules if it’s a couple dollars each year.

Each contact is unique and has its own value and merits. Some people act like we need delta + 1 but allow us to drop to 0 and only pick up when company pays double. End of the day I’m willing to bet spirit pilots work less than delta pilots but want to get up in arms when we don’t make as much as them.

Originally Posted by AllOva736 (Post 3547167)

have you ever had a life outside APC? It seems highly unlikely. There’s no way you have a good personality in person but enjoy this online personality you’ve taken. I’m sure you’d go to delta if you weren’t a human garbage can.

Originally Posted by Justabusdriver1 (Post 3547168)

Each pilot group and company are different with different work rules. I expect our company being part of a lcc model rather than whatever model the legacies follow to be in line with other lcc contract. We won’t get delta or united or American pay. But we have more lenient work rules and a lot more flexibility than they do. You want their pay play by their rules, if spirit doesn’t want to play their rules be act like a legacies you have to be realistic in this is the company you work for. Spirit doesn’t have nearly the market share or capital that delta does. If you want delta pay work for delta. If you don’t wanna work for delta because you don’t like their bases or their work rules that’s your choice. You choose to work for a lcc and you’re giving up pay to have the qol you want. I didn’t come to spirit because they had the best pay I came because they offered a livable wage that can support the life I want to live and gave me the best qol at the time. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. Delta pilot even with “new industry leading pay” certainly give up a lot to get that pay and they work for it.

Originally Posted by onedolla (Post 3547220)

How on earth did you come to this conclusion? We still need to work at Spirit. [Practically] No one here is dropping everything they possibly can every month (and earning nothing). Those that drop pick up better options later, but they’re still working. Most pilots I know across all the majors “work” about the same per month. Unless you were referring to what we do in the cockpit, then sure, maybe we do less? I don’t know other airlines’ procedures.

Originally Posted by Justabusdriver1 (Post 3547202)

I’m not advocating for a huge pay gap like a select few on here seem to insinuate those who are trying to approach this with an open mind are. I can approach this an accept less given our work rules if it’s a couple dollars each year.

Each contact is unique and has its own value and merits. Some people act like we need delta + 1 but allow us to drop to 0 and only pick up when company pays double. End of the day I’m willing to bet spirit pilots work less than delta pilots but want to get up in arms when we don’t make as much as them.

Originally Posted by Justabusdriver1 (Post 3547231)

Working less meaning working a 40 credit hour month and getting paid 80 for it. So yeah working less. I didn’t say people drop and don’t work. People drop so they don’t have to be gone 18 days a month and work 80 credit hours. They drop so they can work 40 and be gone for 10 days (or less for some of the people I know) but still make mmg. That’s less than what those delta pilots are doing. Gone for longer working more hours a month.

Originally Posted by Justabusdriver1 (Post 3547231)

Working less meaning working a 40 credit hour month and getting paid 80 for it. So yeah working less. I didn’t say people drop and don’t work. People drop so they don’t have to be gone 18 days a month and work 80 credit hours. They drop so they can work 40 and be gone for 10 days (or less for some of the people I know) but still make mmg. That’s less than what those delta pilots are doing. Gone for longer working more hours a month.

Originally Posted by justabusdriver1 (Post 3547231)

working less meaning working a 40 credit hour month and getting paid 80 for it. So yeah working less. I didn’t say people drop and don’t work. People drop so they don’t have to be gone 18 days a month and work 80 credit hours. They drop so they can work 40 and be gone for 10 days (or less for some of the people i know) but still make mmg. That’s less than what those delta pilots are doing. Gone for longer working more hours a month.

Originally Posted by Justabusdriver1 (Post 3547168)

Each pilot group and company are different with different work rules. I expect our company being part of a lcc model rather than whatever model the legacies follow to be in line with other lcc contract. We won’t get delta or united or American pay. But we have more lenient work rules and a lot more flexibility than they do. You want their pay play by their rules, if spirit doesn’t want to play their rules be act like a legacies you have to be realistic in this is the company you work for. Spirit doesn’t have nearly the market share or capital that delta does. If you want delta pay work for delta. If you don’t wanna work for delta because you don’t like their bases or their work rules that’s your choice. You choose to work for a lcc and you’re giving up pay to have the qol you want. I didn’t come to spirit because they had the best pay I came because they offered a livable wage that can support the life I want to live and gave me the best qol at the time. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. Delta pilot even with “new industry leading pay” certainly give up a lot to get that pay and they work for it.

Originally Posted by GPullR (Post 3547218)

Forgot less profitable.

Originally Posted by Excargodog (Post 3547261)

Pilots don’t control profitability. But who has more responsibility? A Delta 321 pilot with all 191 pax seats filled or an NK 321 pilot with 228 pax?

Originally Posted by FriendlyPilot (Post 3547267)

So who’s paying for these pay rates? Is this something that JB will inherit after the merger? Does JB have say in any of this? I wonder if JB tries to get out of the merger once they realize that its going to be a huge loss from a financial perspective for them?

Originally Posted by Justabusdriver1 (Post 3547158)

I think your assumption is that there wouldn’t be a fails safe that if the merger fails we go back to the table. This is probably at best a 2 year deal assuming we either merge and negotiate a jcba or the merger fails and we go back to the table with spirit. So no I doubt these rates should be considered longer term

Originally Posted by dualinput (Post 3547270)

Have you ever worked for an airline or for spirit for more than two minutes. Back to the table with spirit management when their attrition problem isn’t nearly as pronounced means spending months cutting up paragraphs about jury duty just to end up where we started months prior. Multiply that by 31 sections. What we vote in this time around will be the last CBA we have with spirit management or it will be the one we have with them for 5-8 years. We’ve never had more leverage. If we don’t realize that it’s on us. I am glad you don’t have a vote. Unfortunately your toxic attitude has much more reach.

Originally Posted by FriendlyPilot (Post 3547267)

So who’s paying for these pay rates? Is this something that JB will inherit after the merger? Does JB have say in any of this? I wonder if JB tries to get out of the merger once they realize that its going to be a huge loss from a financial perspective for them?

Originally Posted by baseball3792 (Post 3547271)

Do realize that most first year pilots just want a pay raise, and will say a lot to try to convince you to give it to them, however short sighted it may be.

I expect this deal to be between JetBlue and Alaska rates, I expect the MEC to send it to the pilots, and I expect the pilots to vote it in roughly 65-35. I hope I’m wrong and that it is Alaska or better (or that there’s more backbone). We’ll find out tomorrow.

Originally Posted by Justabusdriver1 (Post 3547168)

Each pilot group and company are different with different work rules. I expect our company being part of a lcc model rather than whatever model the legacies follow to be in line with other lcc contract. We won’t get delta or united or American pay. But we have more lenient work rules and a lot more flexibility than they do. You want their pay play by their rules, if spirit doesn’t want to play their rules be act like a legacies you have to be realistic in this is the company you work for. Spirit doesn’t have nearly the market share or capital that delta does. If you want delta pay work for delta. If you don’t wanna work for delta because you don’t like their bases or their work rules that’s your choice. You choose to work for a lcc and you’re giving up pay to have the qol you want. I didn’t come to spirit because they had the best pay I came because they offered a livable wage that can support the life I want to live and gave me the best qol at the time. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. Delta pilot even with “new industry leading pay” certainly give up a lot to get that pay and they work for it.

Originally Posted by Justabusdriver1 (Post 3547231)

Working less meaning working a 40 credit hour month and getting paid 80 for it. So yeah working less. I didn’t say people drop and don’t work. People drop so they don’t have to be gone 18 days a month and work 80 credit hours. They drop so they can work 40 and be gone for 10 days (or less for some of the people I know) but still make mmg. That’s less than what those delta pilots are doing. Gone for longer working more hours a month.

Originally Posted by Chimpy (Post 3547264)

unfortunately we don’t get paid that way, lol. Look at FedEx & UPS. How many pax do they carry?

Originally Posted by W6TRP (Post 3547115)

have NK pilots ever had higher pay scales than AS, DL, UA, WN?

Originally Posted by Excargodog (Post 3547261)

Pilots don’t control profitability. But who has more responsibility? A Delta 321 pilot with all 191 pax seats filled or an NK 321 pilot with 228 pax?

Originally Posted by SoFloFlyer (Post 3547297)

Genuine question, the TA gets voted down for whatever reason, don’t we run a very real risk of not getting a new contract until the JCBA? The economy is expected to get worse and the company could use that as an excuse to not negotiate a CBA until the merger? What are y’all’s thoughts?

And before I get called a troll, I’m not lol I believe we should get paid industry leading to fly the same airplane with even more people onboard.

With that said, would love to hear y’all’s thoughts

Originally Posted by GPullR (Post 3547298)

Who gets paid more, a lawyer in witchita Kansas working for a feed store or a lawyer at coca cola??
Both practicing law.
Remind me also how many are sitting behind the cockpit at UPS and FedEx??

Originally Posted by 319wisperer (Post 3547310)

dumb analogy

the Coca Cola corporate lawyer is likely going to have to contend with a much more complex veil of legal matters, will have to be abreast of far more details in the various proceedings, and immensely more money will be at risk if he/she doesn’t perform vs. the feed store lawyer.

Originally Posted by SoFloFlyer (Post 3547297)

Genuine question, the TA gets voted down for whatever reason, don’t we run a very real risk of not getting a new contract until the JCBA? The economy is expected to get worse and the company could use that as an excuse to not negotiate a CBA until the merger? What are y’all’s thoughts?

And before I get called a troll, I’m not lol I believe we should get paid industry leading to fly the same airplane with even more people onboard.

With that said, would love to hear y’all’s thoughts

Originally Posted by MCDUmanipulator (Post 3547192)

oh really? Watch and see what happens… deal will be for 2 years and rates will be a little above jetBlue. Will likely pass ratification. I’ll also double down saying no ULCC will ever match Delta pay. This goes for spirit, frontier, Allegiant, avelo, etc.

Originally Posted by 319wisperer (Post 3547310)

dumb analogy

the Coca Cola corporate lawyer is likely going to have to contend with a much more complex veil of legal matters, will have to be abreast of far more details in the various proceedings, and immensely more money will be at risk if he/she doesn’t perform vs. the feed store lawyer.

the Spirit and Delta A 320 pilot fly the same aircraft over a similar network while adhering to the same regulations.

Originally Posted by CLE to IAH (Post 3547275)

I’m glad you can’t vote.

Originally Posted by SoFloFlyer (Post 3547297)

Genuine question, the TA gets voted down for whatever reason, don’t we run a very real risk of not getting a new contract until the JCBA? The economy is expected to get worse and the company could use that as an excuse to not negotiate a CBA until the merger? What are y’all’s thoughts?

And before I get called a troll, I’m not lol I believe we should get paid industry leading to fly the same airplane with even more people onboard.

With that said, would love to hear y’all’s thoughts

Originally Posted by baseball3792 (Post 3547317)

The whole idea is dumb. In our society, the highest paid individuals are usually the ones who work the least. Your pay has nothing to do with the work you do and everything to do with your market value. Pilots of different airlines may well have different market value (historically, regional pilots got paid the least and legacy pilots the most, though it all seems to be converging now).

The best reason to demand delta pay is not because we do the same work, or some random QOL arguments. It’s because we have leverage right now and we should use it to extract the best possible payscale. But that leverage may not yield us delta pay rates. We will find out soon enough. Delta pilots primarily used the RLA process and public pressure as their form of leverage, which is different than our leverage.

Originally Posted by Lincoln Osiris (Post 3547322)

If that was the case the company wouldn't even be at the table right now since they don't have to be. They clearly need something badly. That is why we should not hesitate to vote no. They need this more than we do and they would come back to the table quickly.

Originally Posted by Poppachubby (Post 3547313)

This is true. Two year deal, Alaska rates with a handful of "nuggets" thrown in (LAS guys will be happy). It will pass. We'll never match Delta. I know its cliche, but if you want Delta pay, go there! If you can't get on now, there must be an issue! Also focus is retaining pilots, First year will still suffer.

Originally Posted by gzsg (Post 3547307)

No!

If they don’t immediately raise 1st year pay their will be no applicants. Management is in panic mode.

Originally Posted by dualinput (Post 3547274)

If our NC negotiated and worse our reps send something that bad to us it’s time to clean house. While that would be a time consuming task normally, spirits attrition problem only gets worse as the dominos on new agreements fall and I expect a real AIP materializes on short order.

And let’s just stop talking about Alaska. The JetBlue guys aren’t asking for or expecting that and neither should we. Delta is the new benchmark. What is so hard for pilots to understand about that.

Originally Posted by FriendlyPilot (Post 3547267)

So who’s paying for these pay rates? Is this something that JB will inherit after the merger? Does JB have say in any of this? I wonder if JB tries to get out of the merger once they realize that its going to be a huge loss from a financial perspective for them?