If you have been a spirit longer then 5 years you know how spirit management negotiates contracts. It takes forever. The fact that they have come to the table before our contract is even over is mind blowing and should show how desperate they are right now to fill seats. Anyone here that can’t see this is blind. Our aircraft utilization has never been lower because we don’t have the pilots. Which is why we are not profitable. If we vote this down and management doesn’t come back to the table. There may not be an airline for JB to buy next year. We absolutely will get another offer from management. I have never seen them this desperate. Open your eyes guys! The time is right now. Not a year from now when we might be merging with JB.


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If you have time, take a look at the SWA forum about the Delta AIP. The majority are calling it crap and looking for 40% or more in raises. The difference in mindset is unbelievable. It’s sad that a portion of our pilot group believe that we belong at the bottom. We are destined for subpar rates and a steep rise in attrition.

I think the bigger issue here is if the negotiators agreed to an AIP on day one with two more days to negotiate that is less than Alaska, and if the MEC votes to send it to us, if it fails, which it should, we should immediately recall the MEC and once a new one is in get a completely new set of negotiators. It will add time but I think it could be worth it. We should be ready to pull that trigger quick. I’m guessing it starts at the rep level.

I’m not NK but from the inside looking in this guy gets it and is spot on wrt the situation at NK. You guys have a lot more leverage than you seem to realize and it’s painful to witness you selling yourselves short.

Yes correct because legacy pay does matter. Not sure why people are saying otherwise, but the legacies are our peer group. This was established by a federal mediator. And every time their pay goes up, so should our pay. I cant believe how many people are anti the pattern-bargaining concept. Bendo knows with every day they delay, the numbers rise, and the company's situation becomes worse. I have this orange lanyard claiming we're "building our legacy." Alaska, let alone Jet Blue rates, is not building any legacy i would be proud of.

New details leaked by LEC person (heard second had in ORD)

1st year $90
2nd year $145
6th year CA $270
12 year CA $305
Company pushing Red Eyes, offering extra $15/hr for those who do them. Guess they want to start doing more red eyes from what i've heard.

Looks like a NO from me.......but need to see complete agreement before making decision.

building our legacy also means building on these 3 opportunities we have. Get a chunk each time.

I’ve heard the same. It will be a no. This isn’t even close to matching inflation.

That $15/hr is what we currently have at B6 for red eye flying.

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Look, this inflation thing is getting out of hand across the board. No one gets raises that match inflation. Not doctors, not lawyers, not McDonald's, etc. etc. etc.
Find me a job field that consistently paces inflation. You can't cuz there isn't one.

This post has nothing to do with whatever rates were about to get handed. This has everything to do with the "doesn't match inflation" claims that have hit these boards so hard lately (and not just the Spirit board)

Um…everyone else in the aviation industry will match or exceed it.

It’s actually $13 at B6, fyi.

Take a look at Sun Country rates. Basically got that plus $10. Wasn’t that almost 2 years ago before inflation hike? They have 462 pilots.

well we currently don’t have an override at NK

you “break” new numbers every day it seems.

Thus far you’ve been 100% FOS.

i doubt much has changed.

Easy NO vote! Just send it back and copy and paste the Alaska pay scale with the new Alpa proposal... put the ball back in managements court.

That would be almost identical to Alaska DOS. Highly suspect it would pass (although of course APC vote would fail 20-80).

Honest question. If a company pays employees the same as others, fuel costs what it does, and aircraft cost what they do, what's makes an lcc work? You can't charge $49 for tickets when your operating costs are the same as everybody. Business model doesn't work. You can only count on so many people not realizing they have to pay for bags.

Man we are going to embarrass ourselves if this get past the MEC and put out for a vote.


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NK casm is half of Delta as of q3 22 earnings. Revenue is on management, but our costs are significantly lower thanks to volume, "fit fleet", etc. Pay is only one element of their cost advantage. Why does our business model have to be explained?

I’m surprised nobody else hasn’t pointed this out…. Not even Delta’s AIP keeps pace with inflation.

I’m pleased people here realize we have REAL leverage this time around. We should not sell that leverage for suboptimal pay rates in the hopes of getting more in subsequent bargaining, as said subsequent bargaining may not happen or may take a loooooong time. We could potentially be stuck with these rates for some time cementing ourselves at the bottom yet again. People claimed we had leverage prior to C2018 (with a TRO hovering over us?!), this time around is truly different. I was a yes on C2018 (no regrets), I’m in a much better spot now, and am ready to vote no on this…

Executive compensation consistently exceeds inflation.


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Because it can't sustain if your costs are the same. Simple. One main reason it works now because overall labor costs are low. If pilots get top pay, don't you think other work groups will want it and deserve it?? There goes business model.

I don’t claim to fully grasp their economic package, but according to a delta rep their TA will beat inflation by a bit when the soft pay is included and W2s are compared.


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Higher density + charging for bags etc goes a long way. Also prices for tickets are inevitably going to go up across the board at every airline in one way or another. Edit* Think about it this way, if both the CA and FO get a cumulative $200 an hour raise and there are 200 pax on board, the price per ticket would only have to go up $1 per hour of flight time! Not to mention pilots aren’t the only ones getting big raises with the current inflationary environment.

Yet you lost money in the 3rd quarter while almost everyone made near record profits. And you want to increase labor costs significantly and think it's sustainable?? This is before a real nickle of merger costs kick in which will be astronomical.

Outside looking in that is.

So we as a profession will just continue to fall behind with our spending power? Where does it end? Good god man. Grow a set.

Our cost are not the same. Not even close. Labor is a part of that, but so is fixed costs like cheaper real estate, lesser hotels, single type fleet, more efficient motors, higher density seating (and soon to be even more dense), not having clubs, outsourcing every station. Casm is all of that and more. The trouble with your thinking is that every other airline's pay is also going up. It is not like it is just spirit's costs that are going to increase. We match delta pay, that would certainly cause a problem competing with Frontier on cost, but dont ya think Frontier's pilots then wouldnt aim right our scale or better?

We were utilizing our A/C at 16 hours a day and now has dropped to around 10 because of having to reduce schedules. We don’t have the bodies to fly the new aircraft coming in. You pay market rate, our attrition will slow, hiring will be where it should and AC utilization with get back to more profitable levels.

Spirit is not losing money because of high labor costs. Spirit is losing money because they arent moving metal. Started out as meltdowns due to losing below the wing contractors in our largest bases resulting in several meltdowns. Why were we losing those employees? Low pay and a failure to keep up with logisitics companies plucking away at our workers. That issue still remains as i understand, and now they have the pilot attrition issue, costing this company roughly 3 hours of flying per aircraft per day. They ust wanna get back to 12 hours of utilization. They're not even considering 14 hours, unless that's what the red eye talk is all about. But let's get this clear. Pilot pay being too high is not why this management team isnt showing their shareholders a profit. Let's all just take paycuts! Yay!

I mean this guy gets it

Spirit is still not profitable since 2019 (pre pandemic). I would hardly say “it works”.

But you are correct, as employee costs rise, there goes some of your cost advantage, not a shocker there

Now can management raise fares to cover employee costs while still being competitive and profitable? Still waiting for us to become profitable…

Spirit, last to profitability. Management is clueless on how to run a profitable airline

I’m amazed at how few people - even airline pilots - understand this. Airline flying is a capital intensive business.

I’m sure we are getting the 33 new aircraft at less than the 101 million apiece list price but even so, that)s $2 billion plus worth of inventory coming in, and just letting it sit there costs serious money, not just tied up in lease or bond costs, but liability insurance, maintenance, parking fees.

As far as operating costs, a 321 with a crew of two pilots and five cabin crew costs about $10,000 an hour (depending on current fuel prices) to fly. The pilots account for less than 5% of that.

Just barely beating inflation isn’t a raise 3 years into negotiations. The so called retro they might get is crap also.

It's great to see somebody on here that actually understands the business model and business in general. I hear too much that the ULCC model does not work... its NOT the model, its the MANAGEMENT! Spirit has **** POOR management! As someone who spent 5+ years working for 2 Wall St firms at my first career and now running businesses and investing in businesses I have to say that I see too much focusing on the bottomline everywhere. I believe our business schools have really dropped the ball for a long time.

Every company/business out there including airlines have an Income/Revenue problem, NOT an expense problem. We have to stare at the top line, not the bottomline. We need our utilization UP, we need to be more creative in raising revenues in other areas also. That's the problem here. The ULCC is a proven successful model, but will not succeed with poor management at the helm (same with any other business) Stop selling yourselves short because ALPA and managements have trained us how to think for decades. There is absolutely ZERO reason why we shouldnt match Alaska rates for a short 2yr extension. Sadly, I wish the NC would understand business as well. I would join Alpa and work my way up to NC and ive thought about it, but I have so much on my plate. We need experienced business people on our side during negotiations. P.S. is the "status quo" as far as i'm concerned, Ive heard him speak too much

Next time you get flight paperwork check the city pair sheet. The last line of each route option are costs in dollars: fuel burn, overflight fees, and time (which is crew including FAs).

Two hour segment with a low cost index on a 321 had fuel at $6300 and crew at $2200 so $4250/hr. Add in lease payments, maintenance, and other operating costs and $10,000/hr sounds about right.

Adding another $2-300 an hour in pilot wages ain’t going to suddenly make the operation cost prohibitive

Ha! McDonald’s workers where i live went from min wage (7.15/hr) to over $15/hr (and will throw in college tuition)in less than a year. Why? Because they couldn’t get anyone to work. You know, worker shortage. Sound familiar? So yes. There are industries that realize that inflation is crazy and they’re gonna have to pony up the pay. Not saying aviation is one of those industries.

I see one provision I would surely want in my contract...

Check your company emails. AIP gives us all a yellow Miata as a signing bonus.