RalphWiggum

shy, please get a hobby. Your constant trolling of this thread has gotten old. Talk to the crew involved, it wasn't as misleading as the article states. Plus, common sense (which you seem to think you have a ton of) would dictate if it was as simple as this, they wouldn't have deplaned and re screened the entire plane.

Sailor

Ralph, It just won't do up mate, he has done it for yrs, we are use to it.

RalphWiggum

I voted no on the LOA as well. What was sad wasn't the vote margin, it was the participation. The apathy of this group is alarmingly pathetic. I've talked to people who complain about how much this cost them yet they didn't vote.

Our pay has become ridiculously substandard with the change in climate during the duration of our contract. C2010 was also to a certain extent, backloaded with pay raises. let's consider a few things here objectively-

1- how JetBlue captain rates became the benchmark for failure/success is beyond me. Look at the totality of the scale. We do a lot of "4th year captain pay is ___." What good does it do us to put a lions share of negotiating capital into a transient pay grade that in another year or two will never be seen by junior captains? We do need large raises in the junior captain scale, but to purely measure the success/failure scale on that is short sighted at best. Condensing the scale to 12 years and achieve linear raises across the board with a healthy top end scale benefits all who want to make this company a career.
2- we will not get AA rates or better at DOS. If we do, we need to accept essentially 117 as our work rules. The survey data doesn't show that is the priority of the pilot group. The majority of the pilots want to see a balance of raises/ preservation of our work rules. It's entirely fine to say no to another less than our current contract with AA rates at our DOS but it'll never happen. If we say no to a deal it will go through mediation, likely be held up for at a minimum 2-3 years and we will then eventually get similar rates with a gutting of our work rules. Factor in the lost wages in our wait for a new contract in the raises we would eventually get. It'll amount to a 5-6 figure sum for most. How long can we wait? The pay, profit sharing etc at Delta can afford them to say no and wait. At $130 an hour for junior captains that gap will only increase with a lengthy delay
3- we will see improvements in retirement with a preservation of the vast majority of our work rules. Calculate that into your overall decision. Also, not to get political but the NMB hasn't been pilot friendly during the Obama administration, so don't expect much to change moving forward.

The question we all have to ask once TA is reached is does it meet our standards? are we willing to say no the offer for a possible alternative? How long are you willing to wait and for how much? How much are you willing to give up in the mean time? To purely pile on the NC before we even have something to vote on is stupid. To change the tone of our groups desires from what we all put on the survey details is even worse.

I will surely vote no for anything substandard but to solely make your argument that is. "Doesn't meet_____ at DOS" is a careless approach to your career and the overall health of the pilot group.

Normann

Good number crunching! According to the MEC updates we were 20 m apart over 5 years. I might be wrong. It was a while back. If so, from to company's side this is all just posturing. They already know they are about to get a good deal on us.

Listening to the rumors, and reading here it sounds like we will be below JB at DOS and pass them over the years. I am talking about rates only. Well... It is almost 2016. Once again we are chasing JB and have to yet catch them. I will wait and see how far we are from industry standard and what else has been offered/changed (scope, merger protection, retirement, trip credit, LTD, etc). If the TA is close to JB, and it catches up quickly, and it is retro to August 1st 2015... it may be a case of one in the hand vs two in the bush. I mean how long should we wait and work under these current rates and rules??? You can ask for DL pay but how many years of negotiating is that going to take? 5? 10? There is no way to know. I sure as **** do not want to work for 30% less for another 5 years not to mention 10. But on the other hand, we cannot start way below standard if we ever want to catch up.

I guess we will just have to see...

Dr Pepper

What I find even more sad is how many people say they voted yes but didnt really understand what they were voting for.

The last contract created a situation where the majority of the gains need to come to the junior ranks. Currently we have CA rates differences of 127-185/hr or 46%. Jetblue (since everyone loves to talk Jetblue)is 173-195 or 13%. You say we shouldnt put as much consideration in jr CA rates because they are transient. You also say we need a shorter more linear scale, which is it? By shortening the scale and making it more linear you are going to be giving the lions share to the junior guys.

As to your other point about a healthy top end I'm confused. If you dont want the larger gains on the junior side are you expecting the 50% of the pilot group on 3rd year pay or less to subsidize large gains at the top? For something they will not benefit from?

We need to bring everyone up including first year guys. Uniforms need to be paid for and training pay dropped. Many of the new hires have more experience than a lot of junior Captains here. They deserve to be paid as well.

gringo

In other news the applicant pool seems to be drying up. I just ran into two pilots who went from zero to interview in two weeks or less; no job fairs, zero letters of rec. One guy submitted his app on a Friday and was on the phone with SF the following Monday.

Both captains at their respective regionals.

RalphWiggum

1- we do need a scale that caps at 12 years. Junior captains here need a 35% raise at DOS to meet this made up good/bad mark of JetBlue. Top end captains need 6%. Having a scale that shows significant gains across the board (linear) would be more beneficial to the pilot group. So, seeing say close to a 20% increase across the board is more beneficial. Negotiating capital being purely spent on year 3-5 captains doesn't help the entire group

Yes a 12 year scale favors "junior" pilots, but keeping a 15 year scale pushes us further away from our peers while dangling the payoff carrot further into the future, which is a problem we have currently

2- no one needs or should subsidize pay raises. I'm purely saying you won't see substantial gains in the bottom end FO pay. I hope I'm wrong. I just purely am trying to get people to think objectively on a potential TA rather than dismiss it because it doesn't meet AA, or equally as dangerous say yes because they want immediate pay raises

RalphWiggum

^ this. It's exactly the type of thinking we need to make once a TA is reached. The devil will be in the details and until something is inked it's all speculation. Regardless, we need to think long and hard about saying yes or no to a potential deal. Both could have broader and deeper consequences than some would like to think

RalphWiggum

That is true. They were evidently offering interview dates at the most recent job fair. the lack of a contract, FO pay and the amount of major hiring is being to show its strain on the recruitment process. Difficult to keep up with 32 a month that way.
Also - attrition continues to climb, mostly with first year pilots and some 2 year pilots

JoeyMeatballs

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