RAH Executive Board Election
10-07-2011, 08:59 AM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Position: What day is it?
Posts: 963
Originally Posted by FAULTPUSH
So IBT doesn't have any airlines flying large jets that are on their second contract? I thought you guys were claiming that IBT had substantial experience with representing airlines flying such airplanes, which to me would mean going through more than one round of contract negotiations with at least ONE airline.
Nice try. ABX is flying 767's, Atlas/Polar are flying 747's and in a month or so, 767's. World has flown everything from DC-10's to MD-11's and 747's. Same with Centurion. The issue isn't aircraft size, as you tried to skew the point. The point was that first contracts are always either work rule or pay based. Ask your friends at ALPA, they'll tell you the smae thing.
False on both counts. FAPA has specifically said that they won't make a recommendation. They have also explicitly said that if you aren't a member, you can't vote or run for office.
This seems to be an IBT habit - they just make stuff up, and if you they it long enough, they expect people to believe it. To be fair though, I guess it worked for them when they snowed you into thinking that you were better off sticking with the same union that signed off on a 4 year, $37 max pay scale for FO's, and doesn't have an IBT airline contract out there that is on par with the FAPA contract (our second one).
Yes, we know the old IBT leadership negotiated a poor contract. Which is why they got replaced. And the new leadership is focused on a better deal. It sure didn't help to have you sell out to BB and give them the argument that, "F9 took a cut; so should you." Trust me, the rest of the industry REALLY appreciates you guys starting a new race to the bottom by management.
How much did you give away to BB in that contract because he told you he'd save you?
We do have a voice. What we're lacking is representation. That is the main reason that people aren't joining. Another reason I hear is the history of crooked dealings at the IBT. What would I gain by joining? If IBT isn't willing to represent us with regards to LOA67 when they have a legal obligation to do so, why would merely joining IBT change that? If we can't have any F9 representatives on the EXCO, what do we gain by having a vote? If an RAH pilot runs on a platform of representing the Frontier pilots (which by definition comes in large part at the detriment of the RAH pilots), why would the 2000 pilots at RAH vote for him/her?
Nice try. ABX is flying 767's, Atlas/Polar are flying 747's and in a month or so, 767's. World has flown everything from DC-10's to MD-11's and 747's. Same with Centurion. The issue isn't aircraft size, as you tried to skew the point. The point was that first contracts are always either work rule or pay based. Ask your friends at ALPA, they'll tell you the smae thing.
False on both counts. FAPA has specifically said that they won't make a recommendation. They have also explicitly said that if you aren't a member, you can't vote or run for office.
This seems to be an IBT habit - they just make stuff up, and if you they it long enough, they expect people to believe it. To be fair though, I guess it worked for them when they snowed you into thinking that you were better off sticking with the same union that signed off on a 4 year, $37 max pay scale for FO's, and doesn't have an IBT airline contract out there that is on par with the FAPA contract (our second one).
Yes, we know the old IBT leadership negotiated a poor contract. Which is why they got replaced. And the new leadership is focused on a better deal. It sure didn't help to have you sell out to BB and give them the argument that, "F9 took a cut; so should you." Trust me, the rest of the industry REALLY appreciates you guys starting a new race to the bottom by management.
How much did you give away to BB in that contract because he told you he'd save you?
We do have a voice. What we're lacking is representation. That is the main reason that people aren't joining. Another reason I hear is the history of crooked dealings at the IBT. What would I gain by joining? If IBT isn't willing to represent us with regards to LOA67 when they have a legal obligation to do so, why would merely joining IBT change that? If we can't have any F9 representatives on the EXCO, what do we gain by having a vote? If an RAH pilot runs on a platform of representing the Frontier pilots (which by definition comes in large part at the detriment of the RAH pilots), why would the 2000 pilots at RAH vote for him/her?
The LOA? You mean the one where you got sold out to supposedly save your jobs that BB claimed he needed to get financing; only to find out that he never needed the concessions that your "leadership" gave away? Yes, a unions job is to represent you...especially from people who sell you down the river and tell you it's a good deal and will save you.
In the end, you didn't answer the question. You didn't join. So because of that, you don't have a say. And instead of taking responsibility for your shortcomings, you blame others.
10-07-2011, 09:14 AM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Position: What day is it?
Posts: 963
Originally Posted by RPC Unity
I read a few posts on another thread that supported the concept of having one or two Frontier Pilots on the Executive Board. I agree that nominating and electing a few Frontier pilots would be a step in the right direction towards building something that might actually work at this property.
Unfortunately, this doesn't appear to be possible. Here is why it will not happen.
The Local 357 claimed that they were going to delay the EBoard election until after the representation election in an effort to include the Frontier pilots.
The representation election ended on June 28th, the Frontier pilots received some membership information in late July and early August. To date, only a handful of Frontier pilots have actually joined as members. A number of pilots inquired about becoming agency fee payers and agency fee objectors. A number of pilots have since questioned the Local 357's computation of chargeable expenses. This process is still ongoing.
Since no one has joined, the IBT has not sent out ANY nomination/election information to the Frontier pilots. The nomination period has already started, and 16.C.2 and 16.C.3 of the Local 357 By-Laws state that a member is only eligible if they have continuous 24 months as a member in good standing.
And how is the failure of F9 pilots to join the fault of Local 357? Do you need your hand held?
I am confused how any of the Frontier pilots could have maintained 24 continuous months of membership in good standing if the election ended in June and no one was required to pay dues until August.
I am also disapointed that the IBT did not communicate any election information to any of the Frontier pilots . There was talk in early 2011 of a "Slate" that included some of the current Exco and some of the Frontier pilots. Apparently the IBT lost interest in this concept. There doesn't appear to be any real effort to "welcome" the new pilots from Frontier.
Even if a Frontier pilot joins and pays his due through September, he still can't be nominated per the Constitution and Bylaws.
Will the Local 357 Trustee grant an exception to the By-Laws or will the EBoard consist of seven Republic pilots and zero Frontier pilots?
Have you asked?
On a related subject, the Local 357 has decided to conduct the E-Board Election via "mail-in Ballot". There is NO IBT requirement to use regular mail, nor does the Department of Labor require mail-in Ballots. In fact, most Unions use an online process. The following are some of the labor organizations use online ballots;
Airline Pilots Association (ALPA)
Association of Flight Attendants (AFA-CWA)
Frontier Airline Pilots Association (FAPA)
Independent Pilots Association (IPA)
National Pilots Association (NPA)
NetJet Association of Shared Aircraft Pilots (NetJet ASAP)
Southwest Airline Pilots Association (SWAPA)
Transport Workers Union Locals - Air Transport Division (TWU-ATD)
US Airline Pilots Association (USAPA)
Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association (AMFA)
Communications Workers of America (CWA)
International Union of Operating Engineers (IUOE)
National Mediation Board (NMB)
The benefits are obvious, online voting is easier for the individual members, and the voters can change their vote up until the close of the election. Using an online process greatly increases the number of members that participate. I can't think of a reason why the Local 357 has decided to use mail-in ballots, unless they would prefer a low percentage of participation versus a high percentage of participation.
On a seperate but related topic, why does the Airline Division have to have two Locals and two Executive Boards? One of the primary reasons the Frontier pilots have avoided membership is the apparent waste and bureaucracy of the IBT.
We have the Airline Division itself, functioning as the administrative/PR/lobbying arm of the aviation Locals. Then we have Local 1224 and Local 357 (Both of which are affiliated with two entirely different IBT Joint Councils).
Why not just have ONE Local, with ONE Executive Board? As an independant union advocate, I can't imagine the amount of money that is wasted here when you consider the overlapping roles and positions between all of these unnecesarry moving parts.
Which goes to show you haven't a clue how the process works. Each Local controls their own affairs. The Division also represents people other than pilots.
Looking from the outside in, it appears that the Local 357 pilots want to be seperate from the other IBT pilots due to the fact they were screwed by their previous Local 747 leadership. It also appears that the Local 1224 gents are happy being seperate with their Airborn Express led EBoard. I would think their experience and leadership would be a huge benefit to the Local 357 pilots.
Again, your command of the facts is sorely lacking. Local 1224 was an ABX only local. It now has Atlas/Polar, Kalitta, Omni, Cape Air, Southern, and others. They all have seats on the "Airborn Express EBoard," as you forgot to mention, just like you forgot to mention that they joined AFTER the last EBoard elections.
They have elections coming up and it will be interesting to see who runs. Most likely it won't be all ABX.
I don't understand the need for all of these layers, seperations and divisions especially when you consider the overall group itself claims to be wanting "one-ness".
In summary, the E-Board election at RAH is really just a "renaming" of the current Exco. There will not be any "outsiders" involved unless the Trustee decides to allow their participation.
Additionally, I think the IBT would be better served with ONE "Super-E-Board", with one or two representative from every certificate represented by the IBT. The result would be a more efficient, effective, transparent, and unified airline division.
Given your track record to date on understanding how they work; your opinions on what would be "better," don't carry much water.
Do any of the IBT members think the Airline Division structure is the best concept available?
Do any of the Local 357 members want one or two Frontier Pilots to be nominated?
Thanks for your time and thoughts.
Mike
Unfortunately, this doesn't appear to be possible. Here is why it will not happen.
The Local 357 claimed that they were going to delay the EBoard election until after the representation election in an effort to include the Frontier pilots.
The representation election ended on June 28th, the Frontier pilots received some membership information in late July and early August. To date, only a handful of Frontier pilots have actually joined as members. A number of pilots inquired about becoming agency fee payers and agency fee objectors. A number of pilots have since questioned the Local 357's computation of chargeable expenses. This process is still ongoing.
Since no one has joined, the IBT has not sent out ANY nomination/election information to the Frontier pilots. The nomination period has already started, and 16.C.2 and 16.C.3 of the Local 357 By-Laws state that a member is only eligible if they have continuous 24 months as a member in good standing.
And how is the failure of F9 pilots to join the fault of Local 357? Do you need your hand held?
I am confused how any of the Frontier pilots could have maintained 24 continuous months of membership in good standing if the election ended in June and no one was required to pay dues until August.
I am also disapointed that the IBT did not communicate any election information to any of the Frontier pilots . There was talk in early 2011 of a "Slate" that included some of the current Exco and some of the Frontier pilots. Apparently the IBT lost interest in this concept. There doesn't appear to be any real effort to "welcome" the new pilots from Frontier.
Even if a Frontier pilot joins and pays his due through September, he still can't be nominated per the Constitution and Bylaws.
Will the Local 357 Trustee grant an exception to the By-Laws or will the EBoard consist of seven Republic pilots and zero Frontier pilots?
Have you asked?
On a related subject, the Local 357 has decided to conduct the E-Board Election via "mail-in Ballot". There is NO IBT requirement to use regular mail, nor does the Department of Labor require mail-in Ballots. In fact, most Unions use an online process. The following are some of the labor organizations use online ballots;
Airline Pilots Association (ALPA)
Association of Flight Attendants (AFA-CWA)
Frontier Airline Pilots Association (FAPA)
Independent Pilots Association (IPA)
National Pilots Association (NPA)
NetJet Association of Shared Aircraft Pilots (NetJet ASAP)
Southwest Airline Pilots Association (SWAPA)
Transport Workers Union Locals - Air Transport Division (TWU-ATD)
US Airline Pilots Association (USAPA)
Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association (AMFA)
Communications Workers of America (CWA)
International Union of Operating Engineers (IUOE)
National Mediation Board (NMB)
The benefits are obvious, online voting is easier for the individual members, and the voters can change their vote up until the close of the election. Using an online process greatly increases the number of members that participate. I can't think of a reason why the Local 357 has decided to use mail-in ballots, unless they would prefer a low percentage of participation versus a high percentage of participation.
On a seperate but related topic, why does the Airline Division have to have two Locals and two Executive Boards? One of the primary reasons the Frontier pilots have avoided membership is the apparent waste and bureaucracy of the IBT.
We have the Airline Division itself, functioning as the administrative/PR/lobbying arm of the aviation Locals. Then we have Local 1224 and Local 357 (Both of which are affiliated with two entirely different IBT Joint Councils).
Why not just have ONE Local, with ONE Executive Board? As an independant union advocate, I can't imagine the amount of money that is wasted here when you consider the overlapping roles and positions between all of these unnecesarry moving parts.
Which goes to show you haven't a clue how the process works. Each Local controls their own affairs. The Division also represents people other than pilots.
Looking from the outside in, it appears that the Local 357 pilots want to be seperate from the other IBT pilots due to the fact they were screwed by their previous Local 747 leadership. It also appears that the Local 1224 gents are happy being seperate with their Airborn Express led EBoard. I would think their experience and leadership would be a huge benefit to the Local 357 pilots.
Again, your command of the facts is sorely lacking. Local 1224 was an ABX only local. It now has Atlas/Polar, Kalitta, Omni, Cape Air, Southern, and others. They all have seats on the "Airborn Express EBoard," as you forgot to mention, just like you forgot to mention that they joined AFTER the last EBoard elections.
They have elections coming up and it will be interesting to see who runs. Most likely it won't be all ABX.
I don't understand the need for all of these layers, seperations and divisions especially when you consider the overall group itself claims to be wanting "one-ness".
In summary, the E-Board election at RAH is really just a "renaming" of the current Exco. There will not be any "outsiders" involved unless the Trustee decides to allow their participation.
Additionally, I think the IBT would be better served with ONE "Super-E-Board", with one or two representative from every certificate represented by the IBT. The result would be a more efficient, effective, transparent, and unified airline division.
Given your track record to date on understanding how they work; your opinions on what would be "better," don't carry much water.
Do any of the IBT members think the Airline Division structure is the best concept available?
Do any of the Local 357 members want one or two Frontier Pilots to be nominated?
Thanks for your time and thoughts.
Mike
10-07-2011, 01:40 PM
#13
Line Holder
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2011
Posts: 63
Originally Posted by ATCsaidDoWhat
You complain about a paper ballot process, yet don't disclose that the electronic balloting you mention is done by a company owned by the AFL-CIO...and there are questions about the security of their process. Funny...paper ballots were used for DECADES..and still are.
From the online ballot website....
"More than 1,000 mail-ballot officer elections have been investigated for LMRDA violations in the past eight years.
During the same time, organizations using BallotPoint conducted over 1,800 elections and cast more than 800,000 votes — without a single successful election challenge."
Yup, you are right ATC, the online process is way better than regular mail.
10-07-2011, 01:59 PM
#14
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2011
Posts: 63
Originally Posted by ATCsaidDoWhat
Here's a question for you: Do you think that your fellow pilots in the industry have been well served by you negotiating a concessionary agreement that other managements will use as an excuse to demand concessions at the risk of bankruptcy?
I will gladly sit at that same table again, and bring laminated copies of LOA 19, LOA 20, LOA 21, LOA 39, and LOA 67.
These LOA's allowed FAPA to enter and exit BK with NOT ONE work rule touched and ALL PAY AND BENEFITS RESTORED TO ORIGINAL BOOK. This is something that has NEVER been done before.
In addition to restoring pay and benefits, FAPA negotiated a $27 million dollar Unsecured Claim. FAPA then negotiated a seat on the Unsecured Creditors Committee. Several other labor groups attempted to gain a seat on the UCC, including the IBT, but only FAPA was granted access.
During the auction, SWA and RAH BEGGED FAPA to give up their claim in exchange for survival. FAPA said no, and shortly after the exit every pilot received their share of the $27 million.
So, to answer your question, YES I think my fellow pilots have been served by FAPA's success during the Chapter 11 reorganization. A quick search of Ch. 11's and 7's during the past decade....
August 11, 2002 – US Airways enters protection
December 9, 2002 – United Airlines under protection
March 31, 2003 – US Airways emerges
April 1, 2003 – Air Canada files
September 12, 2004 – US Airways re-files for protection
September 30, 2004 – Air Canada emerges
December 30, 2004 – Aloha Airlines files
September 14, 2005 – Northwest Airlines files
September 14, 2005 Delat AirLines files, putting 4 of the top 7 carriers in the United States under bankruptcy protection
September 27, 2005 – US Airways emerges, in conjunction with its acquisition by America West
February 1, 2006 – United Airlines emerges
February 17, 2006 – Aloha Airlines emerges
April 30, 2007-Delta Airlines emerges
May 31, 2007 – Northwest Airlines emerges
Dec 26, 2007 – Maxjet Airways files
March 31, 2008 – Aloha Airlines files and discontinues passenger transporting operations
April 03, 2008 – ATA Airlines files and discontinues operations
April 05, 2008 – Skybus Airlines files and discontinues operations
April 10, 2008 – Frontier Airlines files
April 26, 2008 – Eos Airlines files and discontinues operations
The only pilot group that has fared better than Frontier is DAL/NWA (They did lose their DB plan, but their CBA has been restored to a large degree)
I am wondering why you care ATC. I am pretty sure you are at Polar/Atlas, which explains your IBT myopia. Do you also collect a paycheck from the IBT?
10-07-2011, 04:32 PM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 227
As far as to whether or not F9 guys can run/join/Eboard/etc.... had you joined you would be receiving the Pay Day Updates that described this VERY question from the current EXCO. The Eboard will replace the EXCO as the 357 structure has changed from a trusteeship. Once again, had RPC or FaultP., or anyone else lifted a finger and made a small effort, they would have thier answers. instead they await a carrier pigeon with a gold guilded invitation to maybe join. you have your chance, take it or $ t F U and zip it!!!.....
10-07-2011, 07:14 PM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2008
Posts: 879
Originally Posted by ATCsaidDoWhat
Nice try. ABX is flying 767's, Atlas/Polar are flying 747's and in a month or so, 767's. World has flown everything from DC-10's to MD-11's and 747's. Same with Centurion. The issue isn't aircraft size, as you tried to skew the point. The point was that first contracts are always either work rule or pay based. Ask your friends at ALPA, they'll tell you the smae thing..
Originally Posted by ATCsaidDoWhat
Yes, we know the old IBT leadership negotiated a poor contract. Which is why they got replaced. And the new leadership is focused on a better deal. It sure didn't help to have you sell out to BB and give them the argument that, "F9 took a cut; so should you." Trust me, the rest of the industry REALLY appreciates you guys starting a new race to the bottom by management..
Our concessionary contract is better than any IBT contract that I can find for similar equipment (or are they also concessionary?). Quit pretending that pilots at United and USAir and Virgin are hurt by us making more than they do (and they're not 2 years out of bankruptcy).
Originally Posted by ATCsaidDoWhat
Since you opened the can, spill it. Tell us all specifically what you have heard about "crooked dealings" in the IBT Airline Division since the leadership change. Don't try to go back to the past under leadership that was replaced; we all live in the here and now. Open up. Tell us. C'mon...what did you "hear?" .
Originally Posted by ATCsaidDoWhat
The LOA? You mean the one where you got sold out to supposedly save your jobs that BB claimed he needed to get financing; only to find out that he never needed the concessions that your "leadership" gave away?.
Originally Posted by ATCsaidDoWhat
You didn't join. So because of that, you don't have a say. And instead of taking responsibility for your shortcomings, you blame others.
Originally Posted by ATCsaidDoWhat
Which goes to show you haven't a clue how the process works. Each Local controls their own affairs. The Division also represents people other than pilots.
Originally Posted by ATCsaidDoWhat
Here's a question for you: Do you think that your fellow pilots in the industry have been well served by you negotiating a concessionary agreement that other managements will use as an excuse to demand concessions at the risk of bankruptcy?
If RAH wants concessions, just tell them that you'll work for 20% more than the other similar IBT represented airlines, just like Frontier.
Originally Posted by RPC Unity
These LOA's allowed FAPA to enter and exit BK with NOT ONE work rule touched and ALL PAY AND BENEFITS RESTORED TO ORIGINAL BOOK. This is something that has NEVER been done before.
Last edited by FAULTPUSH; 10-08-2011 at 01:03 PM.
10-08-2011, 07:40 AM
#18
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2011
Posts: 63
Originally Posted by sizzlechest
As far as to whether or not F9 guys can run/join/Eboard/etc.... had you joined you would be receiving the Pay Day Updates that described this VERY question from the current EXCO. The Eboard will replace the EXCO as the 357 structure has changed from a trusteeship. Once again, had RPC or FaultP., or anyone else lifted a finger and made a small effort, they would have thier answers. instead they await a carrier pigeon with a gold guilded invitation to maybe join. you have your chance, take it or $ t F U and zip it!!!.....
1. I asked during a face to face meeting six months ago about the 24 month issue. I was told "we will check with legal" but Frontier guys will be able to "participate".
2. I sent an email two months ago to everyone at the AD, Local 1224, and Local 357 asking why the structure requires so many pieces and if the IBT would consider a leaner and meaner representative body. Everyone totally blew me off with the exception of one gentleman at 1224. He responded but failed to explain why there needs are two E-Board elections running simultaneously.
3. I sent another email to everyone at the AD, Local 1224, and Local 357 asking if the Frontier pilots were going to be allowed to participate in the E-Board election that was supposedly delayed in an effort to include their participation. I received a response from the Trustee stating that all Frontier Pilots that are members in good standing will be allowed to "vote".
4. I sent another email two weeks ago asking everyone at the AD, Local 1224, and Local 357 asking for yet another clarification on the 24 month issue. It appeared as if a determination had finally been made regarding the conflict between what the Local 357 Trustee told Frontier pilots earlier this year and the language found in the IBT Constitution and Local 357 By-Laws. I never received an answer.
5. I sent another email to everyone, again, two days ago asking if a Frontier pilot in good standing could participate as a nominee or of a frontier pilot in good standing could only vote. Again no answer.
Which led me back to this message board.
Will the Local 357 Trustee honor his statements that were made earlier this year and allow a Frontier pilot to participate as a nominee?
Mike
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