ATCsaidDoWhat

One thing you and your fellow FAPA leaders have apparently not understood the concept of is that cutting concessionarey deals with management affects everyone in our industry, especially pilots who don't have representation. Your "deal" allows management at those airlines to arbitrarily cut pay and benefits by saying, "See? You aren't worth what we are paying you now because the Frontier pilots just sold their souls to keep their jobs. And we are now cutting your pay and benefits because we can."

The other thing you apparently haven't figured out is that when you get sued, the lawyers never ask questions that they already don't have the answers...and facts to back up.

FAULTPUSH

Oh, believe me, we understand, as this was used against us. I still don't get your point though (pay scales are A320/B737/MD80/B727):

Airline...............10 year pay CA/FO...........years since exiting bankruptcy
United....................$134/$91.............................6....(I think no snap backs)
US Airways..............$135/$89...........................6.5....(I think no snap backs)
Frontier..................$146/$91............................2.5....(snap backs)

And regarding your statement about affecting those without representation (although, admittedly, none of the following have been through bankruptcy):

Allegiant .... $141/$87
jetBlue ...... $155/$104
Virgin ........ $141/$92
.
I think, instead of "without representation", you meant to say "with IBT representation":

Miami Air.... $126/$70
Amerijet .... $85/$55

MistyFAC

Spare me the bullsh*t. This isn't about me and my airline. Within your post you even admitted the underhanded dealings of the IBT 747. Right there is proof enough not to trust the IBT, past or present.

Your union has turned down two offers for pay scale extension/raises for the F/O's on two occasions. Ever thought of sitting down with the company to write an amendment to your contract with a stipulation that a new contract still be negotiated? Probably not because the IBT doesn't negotiate, it demands. Well here you are demanding something you'll never get. You'll never get released. You've cut your nose to spite your face.

Your beloved IBT should've been negotiating a contract for your pilots instead of setting it's sights on unattainable conquests. The senior leadership chased the money trail, and in the process ended up screwing every junior pilot in the ranks.

...So don't talk to me about reality. I live in the big boy world. You obviously are still playing in the sandbox. Enjoy that mouth full of kitty litter.

Mulva

ATC, you appear to have a little insight into all of this which is much better than most of your brethren on this board. You sound as though you might even have some first hand knowledge of things.

I'm not trying to stir the pot on this one, but can you explain what "3 airlines who are now on one list" are being "denied" of? It almost sounds as though you are attempting to blame Frontier for the lack of progress on your negotiations. Seriously, what is the deal?

Hetman

I have a question that may prove to be inflammatory, depending on the answer.

There is a name on my copy of the "List" of someone who crossed the line during the '83 CAL strike that appears to be the same as that of a business agent for the 1224. If this is the same person, I would find it surprising that someone with that background would be a paid employee of IBT. But it may just be coincidence.

The question is: Is this the same person or just coincidence?

ATCsaidDoWhat

Check your p/m.

....revised...

Hetman,

I made a phone call and did some checking. The sole business agent at Local 1224 is a former Naval Aviator (A-4 pilot and I/P). After leaving the Navy, he flew for PanAm and after PanAm folded, went corporate until he was hired and remained a pilot for Midwest Express until it folded. He is now the Local 1224 BA.

At no time was he ever at CAL.

Hope that clears it up.

ATCsaidDoWhat

Misty, your post illuminates for everyone your complete lack of understanding of how the Airline Division works and explains a lot about your anger and frustration.

You use the term "underhanded dealings" with a pretty loose attitude. What you don't want to admit; because it would deny you your right of false indignation, is that the Airline Division underwent a complete change of leadership four years ago. Past errors were addressed and corrected. The Division, it's leadership, actions and operations are an open book for anyone to see. You don't want to admit that fact, because it means that your allegations and assertions are baseless and without merit. And you are mad because in an election between the four airlines under the RAH umbrella to select the surviving union, FAPA lost.

The loss was not due to IBT or any "underhanded dealings" by them. It was due to the venemous manner in which you attacked the other pilots of the carriers owned by Brian Bedford and RAH Holdings. You created a sham concept, made claims that were seen for what they were, and violated the precepts of the RLA. Instead of seeking common ground and a positive approach, you and your fellow polots were front and center in attacking RAH pilots as substandard pilots and somehow beneath the level of a Frontier pilot.

As to RAH and their negotiations. Again, you demonstrate a total lack of knowledge of how the Airline Division works. The RAH pilots, members of Local 357 (their own Local), have the same options as any other unit. They can use the inhouse expertise of the IBT economists, RLA experts, negotiators, lawyers and other disciplines...OR they can choose to retain their own. The RAH pilots CHOSE to retain their own OUTSIDE COUNSEL to assist them in their negotiations.

AS IS THEIR RIGHT.

While I am unaware of the specifics, my understanding is that the two "offerings" were made outside of negotiations...directly to the pilots; which if true...and I am again, not clear on that...would be a violation of the RLA by management. It would also set up what would appear to set up a "reverse" B scale. Which apparently is OK with you. Most of us have fought decades to stop B scales...why you would support one is questionable.

What I find most interesting is your willingness to stand up for management in the tone of your post. Why is that? As I recall, Bedford told your pilot group that if he didn't get the concessions he demanded, he would not be able to get financing. You gave them to him and then it was proven that he never needed them...he bluffed and you folded. My understanding is that the IBT financial analysts discovered that very easily...who did your financial analysis for you before you folded? It sure seems that whatever you paid them was too much also...just like what you gave to Bedford to get a special deal. That looks like it will fall apart.

This thread was started by an Allegiant pilot who was seeking factual information. Your desire to input your anger over poor decisions you made based on greed are understandable...you need to blame anyone but the person at fault...yourself.

From what I've seen, the Allegiant pilots are a pretty good group of aviators who are smart enough to figure out what posts like yours are all about.

Hetman

Coincidence. Good.

rocketman3746

I'm just curious, what would you consider concessions at Cape Air? I think you should have listed at least one thing when making a statement like that. And buyer's remorse? Which union would you have rather "purchased", CAPA? That would have been a disaster, in my opinion. It sounds to me like they were formed with the worst of intentions, and they wouldn't have had anywhere near the resources that the IBT gave us and continues to give us. Stay tuned to your email for a good example of that. Or maybe you would've preferred to stay non-union, I don't know. But then you could kiss all of this goodbye:

-increased sick time which accumulates bi-weekly
-long and short term disability
-scheduled duty breaks
-a 401k contribution from the company
-increased min guarantee for the week and for the day
-increased per diem
-extra pay credit for unscheduled overnights
-extra pay when you have less than 10 days off
-vacation slide
-an open time pool
-improved vacation bidding
-increased bereavement leave
-full coverage for jury duty
-an ASAP program
-a HIMS program
-improved base bidding

And that's just off the top of my head, there's probably more that I'm forgetting about.

Overall the IBT has done a great job considering the size of our airline. With a seniority list of just under 250, ALPA wouldn't even give us the time of day. But like some people said, we got off to a rough start with Local 747, to the point where we voted them out. I think that was probably one of the catalysts that led to their dissolvement. From day one with Local 1224 though, they made it clear that they wished to be judged by how they treat their smallest airline. I always view Unions and their Leadership with a skeptical eye, but so far I have been impressed by Dan Wells and how he runs the Local. We had great representation in negotiating our first contract, and there are not really any items that I view as concessions, unless you are talking about the end our A and B payscales. But feel free to discuss what you view as concessions, I like to hear different viewpoints. Coming from another regional airline with a terrible contract has given me a better perspective, I think, as to how good our contract is. I know time will be the best test, but for a first contract, I think we did very well for ourselves, and we could not have done it without the assistance of Local 1224.

FAULTPUSH

Once again, I think you're lying. Prove me wrong. Admittedly, there were some stupid remarks made in this forum, but you are insinuating that this was a widespread, if not majority opinion.


"Proven"?!?