IBT results and experiences
05-20-2012, 08:41 PM
#51
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2008
Posts: 879
Originally Posted by IA1125
The “odd man out” during the SLI was the IBT. Don’t take my word for it, ask ANY MEA, Lynx or FAPA Committee member what happened and how the IBT behaved. They will ALL give you the exact same answer, and it’s not how the IBT now portrays the process.
05-23-2012, 08:04 AM
#52
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2011
Position: Under beer over couch after skool
Posts: 316
Originally Posted by FAULTPUSH
To any Allegiant pilots thinking of voting for IBT:
This is another LIE. That's three lies from IBT supporters in 2 days. This one is the biggest of the three. If it's not a lie, ATC should be able to document this without any trouble and publish supporting evidence (and not hearsay or vaguaries). FAPA was very impartial in their assessment of the situation, and I don't recall a single statement from FAPA recommending that we not join.
Prove me wrong, ATC.
This is another LIE. That's three lies from IBT supporters in 2 days. This one is the biggest of the three. If it's not a lie, ATC should be able to document this without any trouble and publish supporting evidence (and not hearsay or vaguaries). FAPA was very impartial in their assessment of the situation, and I don't recall a single statement from FAPA recommending that we not join.
Prove me wrong, ATC.
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05-23-2012, 10:40 AM
#53
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Posts: 253
I think this thread is getting a little off track. The whole point was to talk about the IBT in general and if it would be a good match for Allegiant. For the Allegiant people on here, which Local would you be involved in, 1224 or 357? I am fairly sure you would be 1224, since 357 seems to be devoted to Republic in all of it's various forms. If people want to argue about the behavior of Local 357, then start your own thread, because it will have very little to do with what Allegiant can expect with Local 1224. Judging the entire IBT system by the alleged behavior of one Local is like Condemning ALPA because you don't like one particular MEC. YMMV depending on which Local you are a part of, just like it does with ALPA and each MEC. You've heard a lot of noise about Local 357 on here, but taking into consideration that 90% of the people that post here do so to complain, just think about how much noise you've heard concerning Local 1224. I think when it comes to APC, no news is more often than not good news. If Allegiant is going to be part of Local 1224, then they should be talking to pilots from Omni, Atlas, ABX, Cape Air, Silver, Kalitta, World, and a bunch of others that I'm forgetting. And for what it's worth, Local 1224 has treated us (Cape Air) just fine. We negotiated for a fairly good contract in my estimation, and the level of support we have received thus far has exceeded my expectations.
05-23-2012, 02:17 PM
#54
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2012
Posts: 108
I think you're right, at this time, it is not valid to compare 357 to 1224. I have friends in 1224 and have heard no complaints. As you mention, if there's the slightest thing wrong with a group, union or Local, it would be all over this message board.
Having said that, does 1224 represent any National or Major (defined by revenues, "Major" has annual operating revenue of more than one billion dollars) passenger airlines?
Frontier was the first "Major" passenger airline to be represented by the IBT and, as far as I know, the only "Major" passenger airline.
I have not worked with 1224, I don't know much about Allegiant Air's operation or employee relationships, but I would question 1224's lack of experience and knowledge in representing non-commuter, non-cargo airlines.
It is also relatively simple to represent airlines when things are going well with that airline and their employee group. The test is when the inevitable conflicts arise, what do they do then? 357 may be handling their situation completely differently than how 1224 would handle the same situation (I hope), but you never know until the time comes.
However, again, I think you're right, it's at least worth a conversation with 1224. I would suggest that while performing your due diligence, make sure you ask these types of questions.
Having said that, does 1224 represent any National or Major (defined by revenues, "Major" has annual operating revenue of more than one billion dollars) passenger airlines?
Frontier was the first "Major" passenger airline to be represented by the IBT and, as far as I know, the only "Major" passenger airline.
I have not worked with 1224, I don't know much about Allegiant Air's operation or employee relationships, but I would question 1224's lack of experience and knowledge in representing non-commuter, non-cargo airlines.
It is also relatively simple to represent airlines when things are going well with that airline and their employee group. The test is when the inevitable conflicts arise, what do they do then? 357 may be handling their situation completely differently than how 1224 would handle the same situation (I hope), but you never know until the time comes.
However, again, I think you're right, it's at least worth a conversation with 1224. I would suggest that while performing your due diligence, make sure you ask these types of questions.
05-23-2012, 02:22 PM
#55
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2012
Position: Boeing/Right
Posts: 61
Thank you, Rocketman.
It's funny, in a crying on the inside sort of way, the mess all those guys made for themselves and how they somehow think everyone else is interested in or wants to be subjected to their caterwauling.
It's funny, in a crying on the inside sort of way, the mess all those guys made for themselves and how they somehow think everyone else is interested in or wants to be subjected to their caterwauling.
05-23-2012, 04:02 PM
#56
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2012
Posts: 108
Originally Posted by Baxter
Thank you, Rocketman.
It's funny, in a crying on the inside sort of way, the mess all those guys made for themselves and how they somehow think everyone else is interested in or wants to be subjected to their caterwauling.
It's funny, in a crying on the inside sort of way, the mess all those guys made for themselves and how they somehow think everyone else is interested in or wants to be subjected to their caterwauling.
If I'm reading a book and decide after the first 1/4 to 1/3 that I don't like the book, I stop reading it.
If I go to a concert and they start caterwauling, I leave.
If you don't like the content of a thread, stop reading the thread.
05-23-2012, 04:52 PM
#57
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2012
Position: Boeing/Right
Posts: 61
Problem is: the same stuff shows up everywhere. People, such as the OP to this thread, ask a legitimate question and the discussion devolves into the same stupid shouting match.
You guys made this mess -all of you- and we should not be subjected to the same old noise on threads which do not concern your molehill.
Maybe you should ask the mods to create a forum devoted to Why We Hate IBT/FAPA/RAH/Frontier (choose all that apply) so you and bolo and atcsaiddowhat and faultpush and slumav and tiller envy and all the rest can have your little war out of earshot of the rest of us who want to surf APC in peace.
And maybe someone can get a legitimate answer to a legitimate question without having to sift through pages and pages of BS.
You guys made this mess -all of you- and we should not be subjected to the same old noise on threads which do not concern your molehill.
Maybe you should ask the mods to create a forum devoted to Why We Hate IBT/FAPA/RAH/Frontier (choose all that apply) so you and bolo and atcsaiddowhat and faultpush and slumav and tiller envy and all the rest can have your little war out of earshot of the rest of us who want to surf APC in peace.
And maybe someone can get a legitimate answer to a legitimate question without having to sift through pages and pages of BS.
05-23-2012, 07:25 PM
#58
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2012
Posts: 108
Originally Posted by Baxter
Problem is: the same stuff shows up everywhere. People, such as the OP to this thread, ask a legitimate question and the discussion devolves into the same stupid shouting match.
And maybe someone can get a legitimate answer to a legitimate question without having to sift through pages and pages of BS.
And maybe someone can get a legitimate answer to a legitimate question without having to sift through pages and pages of BS.
If you are unwilling to sift through pages and pages of BS, you might be in the wrong spot. I believe sifting is a rather accepted practice, it's an ability one adapts to and an important trait to develop if you wish to participate on ANY message board.
Back when there were dictionaries and you wanted to look up a word, did you turn to that page or start at "A" every time? Skip the parts that annoy you, I do on many threads.
Meanwhile, we still, obviously, have to work through some issues.
We (Frontier pilots) were still forced into a relationship with a representative body we did not want, agree with or elect.
We still pay our dues to our representative body that is using our money to sue us and try to put us out of work.
In addition, EVERYONE on what used to be 6 certificates feels they were screwed on the SLI, regardless of which certificate, which seat or what airplane.
Do you read every America West / US Airways thread and/or post? I don't, even though I think it would be interesting - that's been going on much longer than this debate.
SWA and Air Tran has to be increasingly interesting, I just don't have the time to read it all.
So, once again, read what you what, skip what you don't have time for or have no interest in and stop making me read your posts complaining about my and other's posts which you took the time to read and respond to, thereby wasting as much of my and other's time as I may have wasted yours.
Simple, huh?
05-23-2012, 07:52 PM
#59
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2012
Position: Boeing/Right
Posts: 61
More simple than I think you realize. You spoke volumes, although I am not sure you said what you intended.
The post of yours that you referenced was concise and addressed the OP's question. Wheat separated from chaff. Reposted below just in case it got lost in the sea of noise
Back on topic now. Lets everyone (myself included) do everyone else a favor and keep it there. I think I'll ask the mods to give you guys your own sandbox.
The post of yours that you referenced was concise and addressed the OP's question. Wheat separated from chaff. Reposted below just in case it got lost in the sea of noise
I think you're right, at this time, it is not valid to compare 357 to 1224. I have friends in 1224 and have heard no complaints. As you mention, if there's the slightest thing wrong with a group, union or Local, it would be all over this message board.
Having said that, does 1224 represent any National or Major (defined by revenues, "Major" has annual operating revenue of more than one billion dollars) passenger airlines?
Frontier was the first "Major" passenger airline to be represented by the IBT and, as far as I know, the only "Major" passenger airline.
I have not worked with 1224, I don't know much about Allegiant Air's operation or employee relationships, but I would question 1224's lack of experience and knowledge in representing non-commuter, non-cargo airlines.
It is also relatively simple to represent airlines when things are going well with that airline and their employee group. The test is when the inevitable conflicts arise, what do they do then? 357 may be handling their situation completely differently than how 1224 would handle the same situation (I hope), but you never know until the time comes.
However, again, I think you're right, it's at least worth a conversation with 1224. I would suggest that while performing your due diligence, make sure you ask these types of questions.
Having said that, does 1224 represent any National or Major (defined by revenues, "Major" has annual operating revenue of more than one billion dollars) passenger airlines?
Frontier was the first "Major" passenger airline to be represented by the IBT and, as far as I know, the only "Major" passenger airline.
I have not worked with 1224, I don't know much about Allegiant Air's operation or employee relationships, but I would question 1224's lack of experience and knowledge in representing non-commuter, non-cargo airlines.
It is also relatively simple to represent airlines when things are going well with that airline and their employee group. The test is when the inevitable conflicts arise, what do they do then? 357 may be handling their situation completely differently than how 1224 would handle the same situation (I hope), but you never know until the time comes.
However, again, I think you're right, it's at least worth a conversation with 1224. I would suggest that while performing your due diligence, make sure you ask these types of questions.
05-24-2012, 06:18 AM
#60
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,408
Late to the party, but here are some of my observations of the IBT at World Airways.
Unionized in 1972 or 1976 (I can't remember the year) World was the first airline unionized by the IBT
Member of local 986, no other aviation except the World FA's
Our business agent for many years was a retired World pilot. Many loved him, I didn't and still don't to this day.
He left after a big stink over our 2006 contract.
Our current business agent lets the EXCO run the show with the local and IBT providing back up support (ie: just like ALPA)
I'm a volunteer committee chairman and I have heard nothing but good things from our EXCO on the amount of support that they have received during contract talks and our current bankruptcy proceedings.
We have medical expertise thru a third party company, just like ALPA.
There are NTSB trained IBT accident responders volunteers. I think that ALPA still has better accident support.
I have never heard of a situation were the IBT hasn't come to the legal aid of a World pilot for FAA issues.
I read some of the posts and there's some really good stuff in this thread. If nothing else, I'll echo what others have said: Any union is only as good as the membership and the local leadership within your group. All unions have problems, politics and issues. There will always be the 10% that will try to screw over the rest. Your non union friends will hate you for being a member of a union (Fox news told them that you are single handedly destroying the country). No union can fix bad management nor can they improve the business environment for your comapny. Unions are paid to represent the interests of their membership, not that of another group (This explains so much about the early RAH situation).
Unionized in 1972 or 1976 (I can't remember the year) World was the first airline unionized by the IBT
Member of local 986, no other aviation except the World FA's
Our business agent for many years was a retired World pilot. Many loved him, I didn't and still don't to this day.
He left after a big stink over our 2006 contract.
Our current business agent lets the EXCO run the show with the local and IBT providing back up support (ie: just like ALPA)
I'm a volunteer committee chairman and I have heard nothing but good things from our EXCO on the amount of support that they have received during contract talks and our current bankruptcy proceedings.
We have medical expertise thru a third party company, just like ALPA.
There are NTSB trained IBT accident responders volunteers. I think that ALPA still has better accident support.
I have never heard of a situation were the IBT hasn't come to the legal aid of a World pilot for FAA issues.
I read some of the posts and there's some really good stuff in this thread. If nothing else, I'll echo what others have said: Any union is only as good as the membership and the local leadership within your group. All unions have problems, politics and issues. There will always be the 10% that will try to screw over the rest. Your non union friends will hate you for being a member of a union (Fox news told them that you are single handedly destroying the country). No union can fix bad management nor can they improve the business environment for your comapny. Unions are paid to represent the interests of their membership, not that of another group (This explains so much about the early RAH situation).
Last edited by jonnyjetprop; 05-24-2012 at 06:32 AM.
