Mulva

So ATC, "Complete change" doesn't appear to be the case at the local level. There has been some measure of consistency in that your membership have maintained the same person as Negotiating Committee Chair all the way back prior to CHQ CBA 2003.

That same person chaired the NC during the SLI "negotiations" and continues to do so right now (errr, for the past 5-1/2 years) on your amenable CBA negotiations.

Same guy that wrote this back in 2003?

Damn! That's some heavy $hi+! I really liked this part.

How'd that work out back in 2003? How did it work out for the junior guys with the IMSL? How's it been working for the past 5-1/2 years?

Now I wonder why current negotiations/mediation are going nowhere at RAH? Why in the world does the 357 membership continue to support the efforts of this individual when he did such a stellar job back in 2003?

So there you go Allegiant guys. Ya'll might end up electing the Teamsters some day, but whatever you do, try to avoid using the 747/357 playbook. It sucks!

Mulva

ATC: You're doing a great job of playing "victim", but what about answering the questions? Start with mine from above.

You guys are spending a lot of time, money and effort to essentially gain control of the Commercial Agreement related to LOA67. IBT357 already administers the Frontier CBA, including ALL LOA's, right? When you win control of the CD, what are you planning to do with it? The pilots voting on that agreement did so overwhelmingly (to the tune of 98% I believe). IBT is now obligated to pursue the best interests of the pilots who voted for it. Are they all delusional and will someday come to the realization that IBT rescued them from the perils of something they voted for and, to this day, still support?

Seriously, tell me exactly how this situation is damaging IBT357s ability to better the lives of RAH pilots? IBT357 has been doing a wonderful job of that for many years. When/if you win this case, how will it magically better your negotiating position?

So, again, Allegiant guys, take a deep look at the actions and result IBT has provided for their membership at RAH.

ATCsaidDoWhat

Mulva, as hard as you try very hard to muddy the waters yet again, you are wrong.

The IBT Airline Division leadership was replaced four years ago. You know that. If you took the time to understand how the Airline Division works...which you clearly have not...or refuse to admit...you would know that each pilot group...in this case the RAH pilots...elect their own leadership. So if they have some of the same people in positions, it is because THEY ALONE chose to.

Just like in the recent election for officers in Local 357. Frontier pilots COULD have chosen to run for office. They only needed to do two things; join the union and get a nomination from fellow Frontier pilots. Both are easy tasks. Instead, you pushed your membership to NOT join the union...as a result, you could not nominate anyone and they could not run. And somehow...that became the fault of Local 357 and the IBT.

You have chosen a path where you stand by yourself, refusing to admit that FAPA lost the election and the Airline Division won. So you act like petulant children, telling the world that unless you get your way, you will hold your breath until we all turn blue.

OK.

Therein lies the difference between you and the Allegiant pilots. By all accounts they seem to be a group that is motivated and wants to improve their careers and Quality of Life by joining a union where they will have their own autonomy and the strength that comes from having a large national union to stand with them.

Your group could stand to learn a thing or two from them.

Mulva

No misunderstanding here ATC. I'm down with the fact that Airline Division leadership was replaced 4 years ago. I even agree with you that RAH pilots elect (what few of them actually voted) their own leadership. That is exactly my point. Is there nobody at RAH with a better track record or people/negotiating skills than their "choice" for the past 10 years?


"Pushed" wouldn't really be the right word. It was more along the lines of suggesting each individual pilot do their own due diligence, and then make an informed decision. We're mostly adults over here and manage to think things through on most occasions. Based on the their track record and non-existent relationship with the Company, there is no wonder that all but 5-10 of us made a "choice" NOT to join Local 357. If the 357 wasn't what it was and is then there might have been more making that choice. As it stands, we see nothing but an incompetent, unrealistic & adversarial (in just about eery way possible) group that has done NOTHING (as in providing ZERO BENEFIT) for their membership for many years. Maybe that is how you all measure success so we'll definitely need to disagree on that.

Oh no. We fully realize FAPA lost. Isn't that freaking obvious? What else would have been expected when IBT holds all the cards and then misguides and misinforms their membership as to the evils of FAPA (aka Frontier Pilots). You know, those a$$clowns who think they are better than everyone because of the size of their mighty Airbus. The ones who asked for something unrealistic in the SLI since the other side (aka Teamsters) refused to do nothing but the same.

Everything is a battle with you guys. Has anyone ever asked why the Teamsters can't get along with a fellow group of Pilots any more than they can with their own Management? Could it be that the Nikita Kruschev school of negotiation employed by 357 is flawed?

You still haven't answered my question. In the words of your former leader "what is the plan?" Take a shot at gaining our support. Tell us how you plan to rescue us from the wounds we inflicted upon ourselves in an effort to help assure a future for Frontier and ourselves? I'm still trying to figure out how it is that those efforts have hurt you. If LOA67 hurts IBT then maybe any of the previous 66 LOAs hurt you too. Are you going to negotiate with Management to fix the wrongs that Frontier pilots blindly accepted? Seriously, let's say, after all of the time and money, IBT prevails in court. LOA67 is part of the Frontier CBA and going to stay that way. You'll get control of the CD and be able to tell the world that you showed management. But what benefit will be derived for IBT?

FAULTPUSH

To any Allegiant pilots thinking of voting for IBT:

This is another LIE. That's three lies from IBT supporters in 2 days. This one is the biggest of the three. If it's not a lie, ATC should be able to document this without any trouble and publish supporting evidence (and not hearsay or vaguaries). FAPA was very impartial in their assessment of the situation, and I don't recall a single statement from FAPA recommending that we not join.

Prove me wrong, ATC.

IBT drove the F9 pilots away by filing suit to undo an LOA that Frontier pilots had voted for overwhelmingly (perhaps even a historically supported LOA?). They did it without any consultation or persuasion of the Frontier pilots, but with an attitude of "we know what's best for you". IBT drove the nail in the coffin of any hope of winning the support of the Frontier pilots.

They drove the other nails over the preceding months by refusing to negotiate a representation structure that would have protected the interests of the Frontier pilots against the majority vote of the RAH pilots, apparently purely to protect the IBT's financial interest in the matter. When it came to the flight attendants, they were very willing to have the same structure that FAPA had advocated, because it was in the IBT's interests to do so in that case.

If you vote for IBT (or probably for ALPA too), Allegiant's pilots' interests will take a back seat to the national organization if our history is any guide.

FAULTPUSH

I recommend to the Allegiant pilots:
1. form an in-house union (if you really want a union at all).
2. find someone like Jeff Thomas (FAPA president) to run it.

Part 1 is easy. Ask any Frontier pilot how satisfied they are with FAPA compared to any other union they've been with.

Good luck with 2. It's exceedingly tough to find someone who is both willing to take on a thankless position like union president, AND who is highly effective in that role. You need someone like Jeff who is as effective as IBT has been ineffective.

ATCsaidDoWhat

Pages and pages could be devoted to your revisionist history...as you have elsewhere...however the facts don't change.

When the groups met to discuss the SLI, you took a seat on the side and refused to participate. When you finally engaged, you demanded that under a merged, combined and integrated seniority list, no non Frontier pilot could come onto the list ahead of an F9 pilot.

Do you recall what happened with the arbitrator? Now you intend to have the SLI thrown out in court.

There's a problem with that. An arbitrators ruling has the force of law. To overturn it, you must go to the arbitrator and prove to him that he produced a legally flawed ruling.

The key word here is “legally.” Not because you didn’t get your way. And you know that you there is not a LEGAL flaw in the ruling. That won’t stop you however. You want what you want.

And when you don’t get your way, you trash the RAH pilots over their “lousy” contract. A contract that was negotiated in 2003. (Math lesson…9 years ago). They decided that the best negotiating position would be for the combined group to negotiate as a unified group, for a better contract.

Everyone agreed…good plan. Except you. Despite being determined a single carrier, you want your own deal. Because you are “special.” You’re not. You fly an Airbus…like a lot of other folks. And the laws of aerodynamics don’t give a rip if you are in an RJ, a turboprop or a ‘bus. You haul more people simply as a function of the seating capacity. So get over yourself.

Now…let’s talk unions and contracts. Tell us; at a time when RAH is trying to engage management to get a better contract, why did you not stand with them? Does unity mean anything? Or is your belief, “we got ours, screw you.”
It sure seems that way, because not once have you supported your fellow pilots. Instead, you cut deals with management that feather your own nest. When the company violates the RLA and goes around the Local to bargain directly with the First Officers…(ask your lawyers to explain the RLA to you on this)..instead of standing up with the pilots against a management that is violating the law; you embrace the act and condemn the union for trying to stand up for ALL of the pilots.

Your LoA that you speak so highly of. It codifies that if there is profit sharing, that FAPA will be involved in the disbursement…it that correct? (And let’s be serious here…FAPA and FAPAInvest are the same thing) Tell us how that can be when FAPA is no longer the legally recognized bargaining agent? Which means your LoA violates the RLA, because the majority of pilots voted the Airline Division as the bargaining agent. You see, despite your personal opinions and beliefs; you can’t violate the RLA.

That’s why they filed suit against you.


You didn’t. And it was the same attitude that blew up your chances with Southwest. For which, the AirTran pilots probably are thankful.

The pilots of Cape Air negotiated their CBA and got what most, if not all they wanted. So did Atlas. So did others. No “national agenda”…what THEY wanted and with the assistance of the Division…when they wanted it. Nothing was forced on them. Every one of them has autonomy.

And they have something FAPA never had and never will have…the support of an organization of 1.4 million members, staff, tremendous assets and the ability to marshal those for forces and resources to support the pilots of Allegiant.

This thread was started by a pilot who wanted some honest information. For the most part, there have been good posts here and they now have the opportunity to go to roadshows and get more honest answers. And if they choose to look around APC, they’ll find your posts and find that your M.O. is consistent: you and FAPA make mistakes, blame SWA, then the IBT, trash RAH pilots, trash the local, cry, whine…and repeat, hoping someone will buy into it.

FAULTPUSH

So you're dodging my challenge, because you can't produce evidence to show that you didn't LIE.

FAPA laid out our options - there was no pressure to join or not join. There HAS been pressure to pay IBT (perhaps "encouragement" is a better word). That's been quite clear.

I have done no such thing myself. I have, however, pointed out that IBT contracts in general are pretty lackluster compared to others.

We asked for the same treatment that IBT later afforded the flight attendants. I don't recall any fuss over it being "special".


The logical extension of your reasoning is that the senior pilots at UA and DL shouldn't fly the 747's just by virtue of having more time invested in the industry/airline, and there's no reason airlines should hold experience to be of any value in their hiring decisions.


Another LIE. There was no bargaining with the FO's, and they didn't "go around" the local. The local expressed no objection to the idea when it was presented to them. The local needs some education on what a contract is, and needs to understand that they can't give the company the OK do take actions in violation of the contract. Or perhaps you could hire FAPA as consultants.


To your question, FAPA is not involved in the disbursement, and by my understanding, FAPA Invest will not be involved in the disbursement either.

To your claim - No, FAPA is a union, representing the interests of all the pilots of Frontier Airlines. FAPA Invest is an LLC that represents the interests of a group of investors. Those interests of the two are often inherently in conflict with each other. If you drew a Venn diagram, the two groups are not 100% overlapping. There are people who are members of each individual group without being members of both.


I hate to be blunt, but a fat lot of good that's been doing you. For 4 years?

TillerEnvy

ATC - facts aren't important to these kids. Stop wasting your time. They're never wrong. I've finally given up.

FAULTPUSH

They're very important. It would be nice if ATC would put some out there.

If you can't attack the message....

In fact, given the number of lies that I've identified, I really think that ATC is part of the IBT leadership (or maybe he's part of a FAPA conspiracy to make IBT look bad?)