Reserve Thread
04-08-2017 | 12:37 PM
#81
Line Holder
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 943
Likes: 0
From: 747 Captain, retired
We have three threads on this board that have turned into reserve threads. So lets start our own conversation.
I will start by saying that I don't mind being on reserve and bid the 787 knowing full well I would be on it for years. I understand that SC is necessary and will always commute in to be available. I also understand FSB may be necessary sometimes and sit in ops as required. The requirements of reserves are the same at every airline and will never change.
With that said the issue at United is the lack of rules for reserves and the confusion it causes within the pilot ranks and scheduling. There are 3 "Quick Question about legality" threads and 2 RSV handholding sticky threads on the front page of the other forum. If RSV is so good and the best its ever been why is there so much confusion 5 years in to our contract? Its because there are no rules or examples in the contract its a free for all. Scheduling owns pilots on reserve from midnight on the first day until midnight on the last day plus all of there RDOs and FDOs. Its out of control.
Here are some examples:
1. They schedule so many SCs every day that they run out of coverage for last minute flights. EX: Just 2 days ago. 10+ RSV in SFO 787FO with 4-6 days of availability, all were given a SC and at 8pm CDG opened for the next day, so who was available to cover it only a 2 day guy. He was rolled 2 days. Thats stupid, and uncalled for.
2. Scheduling waits until midnight the day before to build and assign SCs because of the 15hr rule. If the assignment is build within 15hrs its assignable immediately. they sit all day to make sure flying is covered then send out phone calls that wake everyone up at midnight to assign a SC for the next day. Do they really not know whats going to happen on an international fleet more than 10 hrs out?
3. They schedule the 1 and 2 day pilots for the 7am SC. The only trips that SC covers is the 5/6 day HGH and CTU. If you get called out for that trip you are getting 4-5 days rolled. They do this because they can give reserves their 36hrs free from duty away from base. EX: I have sat SC for three days out of 4 then was sent on a 6 day HGH SC. I was at work for 9 days straight. The kicker? There were several 5-6 day pilots on RSV that day but they were all on 8pm SCs. The overbuilding of SCs is causing coverage issues and the pilots pay for it.
I could keep going but those are three first hand examples of what I consider unacceptable scheduling practices allowed by our contract. Four things could be fixed in our contract and we would have the best reserve rules in the industry:
1. All SCs and FSB MUST be built by 11am the day prior with exception given to IROPS. this allows planning for the pilots life.
2. A cap on SCs assigned per month. If you want more than the cap have it, pick up as many as you want.
3. Every SC and FSB should be considered duty, 117 considers it duty, and should be paid at 5hrs toward guarantee.
4. SCs SHALL be built based on historic needs. With start times and number assigned that make sense with fleet/base/seat. This would prevent scheduling from putting a pilot on SC just because.
One day I'm going to be VERY senior and I will still fight for the junior pilot. As Oldmako said "I want to leave this place in better shape than I had it". I want the Reserve FO sitting next to me to look over at me and say life is good! I want to see pilots fly the aircraft they want and do the type of flying they want in the seat they want without worry of QOL. These changes are not unobtainable and I will allow my union reps to negotiate. These items are also not a automatic no or yes for me, they are just things I would like to see.
There is difference between complaining and *****ing. Complaining is annoying and gets nothing accomplished, most people that complain have no ideas on how to fix the problem. *****ing gets results because most people who ***** have an idea on how to make it better. I have yet to see anyone on this board complain about reserve. So lets pull together as a pilot group in 2019 and figure out how to make EVERY section of the contract bette from the #1 pilot to the #13,000 pilot.
I will start by saying that I don't mind being on reserve and bid the 787 knowing full well I would be on it for years. I understand that SC is necessary and will always commute in to be available. I also understand FSB may be necessary sometimes and sit in ops as required. The requirements of reserves are the same at every airline and will never change.
With that said the issue at United is the lack of rules for reserves and the confusion it causes within the pilot ranks and scheduling. There are 3 "Quick Question about legality" threads and 2 RSV handholding sticky threads on the front page of the other forum. If RSV is so good and the best its ever been why is there so much confusion 5 years in to our contract? Its because there are no rules or examples in the contract its a free for all. Scheduling owns pilots on reserve from midnight on the first day until midnight on the last day plus all of there RDOs and FDOs. Its out of control.
Here are some examples:
1. They schedule so many SCs every day that they run out of coverage for last minute flights. EX: Just 2 days ago. 10+ RSV in SFO 787FO with 4-6 days of availability, all were given a SC and at 8pm CDG opened for the next day, so who was available to cover it only a 2 day guy. He was rolled 2 days. Thats stupid, and uncalled for.
2. Scheduling waits until midnight the day before to build and assign SCs because of the 15hr rule. If the assignment is build within 15hrs its assignable immediately. they sit all day to make sure flying is covered then send out phone calls that wake everyone up at midnight to assign a SC for the next day. Do they really not know whats going to happen on an international fleet more than 10 hrs out?
3. They schedule the 1 and 2 day pilots for the 7am SC. The only trips that SC covers is the 5/6 day HGH and CTU. If you get called out for that trip you are getting 4-5 days rolled. They do this because they can give reserves their 36hrs free from duty away from base. EX: I have sat SC for three days out of 4 then was sent on a 6 day HGH SC. I was at work for 9 days straight. The kicker? There were several 5-6 day pilots on RSV that day but they were all on 8pm SCs. The overbuilding of SCs is causing coverage issues and the pilots pay for it.
I could keep going but those are three first hand examples of what I consider unacceptable scheduling practices allowed by our contract. Four things could be fixed in our contract and we would have the best reserve rules in the industry:
1. All SCs and FSB MUST be built by 11am the day prior with exception given to IROPS. this allows planning for the pilots life.
2. A cap on SCs assigned per month. If you want more than the cap have it, pick up as many as you want.
3. Every SC and FSB should be considered duty, 117 considers it duty, and should be paid at 5hrs toward guarantee.
4. SCs SHALL be built based on historic needs. With start times and number assigned that make sense with fleet/base/seat. This would prevent scheduling from putting a pilot on SC just because.
One day I'm going to be VERY senior and I will still fight for the junior pilot. As Oldmako said "I want to leave this place in better shape than I had it". I want the Reserve FO sitting next to me to look over at me and say life is good! I want to see pilots fly the aircraft they want and do the type of flying they want in the seat they want without worry of QOL. These changes are not unobtainable and I will allow my union reps to negotiate. These items are also not a automatic no or yes for me, they are just things I would like to see.
There is difference between complaining and *****ing. Complaining is annoying and gets nothing accomplished, most people that complain have no ideas on how to fix the problem. *****ing gets results because most people who ***** have an idea on how to make it better. I have yet to see anyone on this board complain about reserve. So lets pull together as a pilot group in 2019 and figure out how to make EVERY section of the contract bette from the #1 pilot to the #13,000 pilot.
04-08-2017 | 12:46 PM
#82
Banned
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 216
Likes: 0
market based solution
here's a proposal
have the neg cmtee seek in the next contract a "commuter election."
pilots can elect to work under the in-base or commuting option.
then adjust pay rates to reflect the desired work rules, reserve rules, and commuter flight options. cost it all out.
if some pilots want to commute and have their "improvements", they can accept the cost.
if others want to live in base and don't need "improvements", they can opt for the in-base rates.
i can see the steam coming from the heads of the commuters looking for a better deal for themselves already
let it fly, boys
have the neg cmtee seek in the next contract a "commuter election."
pilots can elect to work under the in-base or commuting option.
then adjust pay rates to reflect the desired work rules, reserve rules, and commuter flight options. cost it all out.
if some pilots want to commute and have their "improvements", they can accept the cost.
if others want to live in base and don't need "improvements", they can opt for the in-base rates.
i can see the steam coming from the heads of the commuters looking for a better deal for themselves already
let it fly, boys
04-08-2017 | 01:08 PM
#84
Banned
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 216
Likes: 0
i can tell you the intl trips are diff than domestic. they're longer and can't really be split for coverage.
but if pilots want to elect the option, with the adjusted rates, go for it
the commuter option could have:
pos space commutes in aisle seat
hotel night before or after trip
full crew desk transparency
no harassing "short" calls
long calls (15 hrs ?)
laundry drop-off
uber ride to commuter airport
(no need for airport car)
fixed days off. they can just up the num on wb reserve to cover those six day trips
whatever. put it all in the option. and adjust the pay rates to balance whatever the costs are
and let pilots elect one option or the other
98% will vote for this system so the commuters to reserve will have what they want
a very modest proposal
04-08-2017 | 01:23 PM
#86
Banned
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 216
Likes: 0
if not, then you don't know what trades or exchanges were made
this assumption that the company and the group can improve one area of the contract without costing somewhere else is just - not even sophomorish. even college sophomores understand this
do we still have pilots on property without college degrees ?
this is really basic stuff Mako
04-08-2017 | 01:24 PM
#88
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,130
Likes: 0
From: B737 CAPT IAH
I recommend all RSV experts on this forum sit down and read 20-K and 20-I-6 of the contract a few times. Then read it a few more times.
You get a CDW at 1800 on LDO for a reason. It is duty and starts 30/168 clock running or interrupts a time free from duty. If you have an assignment placed prior to 1800 you have to acknowledge which then satisfies the two way contact requirements.
And for SC or FSB, there is no automated check in available.
Lee
04-08-2017 | 01:27 PM
#89
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,130
Likes: 0
From: B737 CAPT IAH
Look, we can negotiate any thing but it all has a cost. In the end, it may not cause us to loose anything.......other than something else, say vacation or training pay per day.
It all goes to the bottom line of the cost of the CBA. Not right just is.
Surveys will be forthcoming and I recommend that all participate.
That said, the union will and really must follow the guidance of the whole pilot group. That is the fact of the matter.
Sacrifices will be made in other areas to capture gains in QWL if that is the will of the total pilot group.
Just realize, how we cost items differs greatly from how the company values them. We meet somewhere in the middle ground.
As a much wiser pilot once said, never give up work rules as they'll cost twice as much to get back (Rick D.).
I won't rehash LUAL BK history, other than so much was given to save an A plan that was dead day one of BK. They just had target fixation, as did many of the pilot group. PW sold you a turd and a majority of the pilots voted for it.
We are where we are now because of those monumental mistakes by the "leadership " and the pilots that said yes.
If all is so bad, I recommend a leave of absence. Or, do what I did and take a voluntary furlough. It worked great for me. But, I don't hang my hat on hoping this company succeeds.
I came back because it worked for Me and mine.
When you get a chance, sit down and compare BK 1 and 2 contracts to what we now have........
Is it perfect, no. Is it LCO rules, far from it. Did it "cost" to get to where we are today, yes.
Grow up boys and girls. You might be willing to burn down the house over RSV rules. Unfortunately your contemporaries may not be. Majority rules.
Lee
Last edited by LeeFXDWG; 04-08-2017 at 01:50 PM.
04-08-2017 | 01:55 PM
#90
Banned
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 216
Likes: 0
And get me vacation override back too. When you stop smoking whatever you are smoking, let me know.....
Look, we can negotiate any thing but it all has a cost. In the end, it may not cause us to loose anything.......other than something else, say vacation or training pay per day.
It all goes to the bottom line of the cost of the CBA. Not right just is.
Surveys will be forthcoming and I recommend that all participate.
That said, the union will and really must follow the guidance of the whole pilot group. That is the fact of the matter.
Sacrifices will be made in other areas to capture gains in QWL if that is the will of the total pilot group.
Just realize, how we cost items differs greatly from how the company values them. We meet somewhere in the middle ground.
As a much wiser pilot once said, never give up work rules as they'll cost twice as much to get back (Rick D.).
I won't rehash LUAL BK history, other than so much was given to save an A plan that was dead day one of BK. They just had target fixation, as did many of the pilot group. PW sold you a turd and a majority of the pilots voted for it.
We are where we are now because of those monumental mistakes by the "leadership " and the pilots that said yes.
If all is so bad, I recommend a leave of absence. Or, do what I did and take a voluntary furlough. It worked great for me. But, I don't hang my hat on hoping this company succeeds.
I came back because it worked for Me and mine.
When you get a chance, sit down and compare BK 1 and 2 contracts to what we now have........
Is it perfect, no. Is it LCO rules, far from it. Did it "cost" to get to where we are today, yes.
Grow up boys and girls. You might be willing to burn down the house over RSV rules. Unfortunately your contemporaries may not be. Majority rules.
Lee
Look, we can negotiate any thing but it all has a cost. In the end, it may not cause us to loose anything.......other than something else, say vacation or training pay per day.
It all goes to the bottom line of the cost of the CBA. Not right just is.
Surveys will be forthcoming and I recommend that all participate.
That said, the union will and really must follow the guidance of the whole pilot group. That is the fact of the matter.
Sacrifices will be made in other areas to capture gains in QWL if that is the will of the total pilot group.
Just realize, how we cost items differs greatly from how the company values them. We meet somewhere in the middle ground.
As a much wiser pilot once said, never give up work rules as they'll cost twice as much to get back (Rick D.).
I won't rehash LUAL BK history, other than so much was given to save an A plan that was dead day one of BK. They just had target fixation, as did many of the pilot group. PW sold you a turd and a majority of the pilots voted for it.
We are where we are now because of those monumental mistakes by the "leadership " and the pilots that said yes.
If all is so bad, I recommend a leave of absence. Or, do what I did and take a voluntary furlough. It worked great for me. But, I don't hang my hat on hoping this company succeeds.
I came back because it worked for Me and mine.
When you get a chance, sit down and compare BK 1 and 2 contracts to what we now have........
Is it perfect, no. Is it LCO rules, far from it. Did it "cost" to get to where we are today, yes.
Grow up boys and girls. You might be willing to burn down the house over RSV rules. Unfortunately your contemporaries may not be. Majority rules.
Lee
i have tears in my eyes
beautiful
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