Agreed 100%! Some here will soon learn what a guaranteed snap back means to management. It simply will not go as you think it will. There is always some fine print and or legal loop hole that will cause the snap back to not snap. They are written into these agreements and ALPA always loses.

 

That makes sense, from what you know, there's no mention of BK triggers? If UA somehow reaches covenant cash flow limits prior to the snapback date or passenger loads, then we'd enter bankruptcy with the concessionary agreement?

 

Actually.. it does- There are two costs.
One is the old 'Time & Money'.. it costs us all valuable time which is translatable to money; ie.. to look at it, then digest it, have numerous discussions about it, then vote on it .. same applies to the union side of it.

And then there is the big COST. The cost in Unity of the pilot group. The fact that we are discussing how WE, The Pilot Group have to pay for the bottom 2850(+) to stay employed is already a cost. This has (and will) create a wound to this pilot group that will take years to heal.

So if we accept a 50% pay reduction it's "worth a closer look"...?*
*As an example
Make no mistake, Management has one goal- lower labor costs. And with that goal in mind, they want to lower labor costs for as long as possible.
This should have played out with an honest Early Out program back in June/July.. and with legit Furlough mitigations shortly thereafter.

Sure, I get where pilots want to see what the deal is. But a deal should never have been made if it involves concessions. And we already know that the company wants concessions. We only need to look back these past 3 years and see how our Contract talks have progressed.

Funny how pilots have forgotten we are still operating on a 2012 Contract. And will be operating under it until at least 2025.

I'm not an instant ''No" vote. I am an INSTANT NO VOTE for anything that is a concession.
If you or anyone else can explain to me how a furlough mitigation program is feasible without a pay concession, I'm all ears.

Yes and No.
Sure, the Industry has changed in the sense that we no longer have Flight Engineers (Sad), We have ETOPS, we fly with IPADS, we bid with PBS.
What has NOT changed, and never will .. is management will always be management. We a line cost. An employee number. Nothing more in the big scale of things.

Will it pass? Unknown. If the majority of legacy pilots vote based on their past experiences, it will NOT pass.

Unfortunately, I have seen PP on the 78 fleet almost constantly. Other fleets, not sure.. but possible. To believe that PP will not exist going forward is wrong. Premium Pay will always be around because the company believes (and knows) it's cheaper than keeping extra pilots. It will also exist because of mis-management.

^This^
Unfortunately.. (And I understand why), those in the furlough pot are also those who do not understand what the two Legacy Groups went through in the late 80's, 90's and 2000's. Not making an excuse, just stating a fact.
There is a reason why some pilots scream Full Pay to The Last Day. There is History behind it and the majority of the Post Merger New Hires don't understand that.

LOL
Post of the Day.
As someone who hasn't worn his pin in years, I find your comment funny. If you think a pin makes you a strong unionist, you still have a lot to learn.
We have SCABS who wear the pin.. proudly I might add but will never uphold the contract due to fear. (Hell, some don't even buy a drink, I read)
And we have slick ties who lean forward to help fellow pilots, and who Fly The Contract. Who ARE unionist.
*Some do wear the pin, but upside down~

Don't try to be the tough guy, Johnny Union who tries to bully people that don't agree with you.
There is a strong reason so many (UNION) pilots are voicing their displeasure and concerns with regards to modifying a contract that is already 2 years past due. When all is said and done, we will have ended up working under a 12yr contract if we are lucky enough to have a new one in 2025.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Look, it's pretty obvious that the company outsmarted the union this time. They have shifted and put the "furlough" power into the pilot groups hands knowing that it will cause a divide amongst us.
Sure, you want to see some sort of furlough mitigation from the union out to us so we can vote on it.
But many of us are asking why are we even talking about this since this is a company screw up from back in April. They have been chipping away at this pilot group ever since.
A company who said they would negotiate in honest back in 2018 so we would have a new contract on time.
A company that spent United Continental Holdings profits to purchase aircraft to be flown by non United Pilots.
A company that announced (Through WARN Notices) furloughs of 2250.. but then announced an Early Out/Furlough Mitigation program to lower those numbers.. only to raise them by 600!

The damage that has been done will take years to fix.. keep that in mind.
And that isn't just within the union, it will also be between employee groups and management.

Flame Suit On
Always
Motch

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the other forum is not an "ALPA" forum any more than APC is, right? You'll never see ALPA officially host a forum.

 

Making a concessionary deal with United management.....what could possibly go wrong?

This is a sucker’s bet.

 

With 4,000 extra pilots laying around, how many more extra do they need?

 

You have to ask? A screen name of "Kingslayer" and 4 posts. What was that about the other forum banning users?

 

If this AIP passes any guesses if we rebid October schedules?

 

Thank you. That forum has turned into Scott's message board. And I don't mean Kirby.

Locked threads, dissention squased (unless its the other sides opinion,etc) What a farce and why bother to participate? Who moderates the moderators? Someone calls out their opinion and poof...theread locked or worse.

It sickens me to see what a bunch of thin-skinned babies we have become.



Phuckkit.

 

It was no different Boyle's, the same 10 a-holes teeing up to see who could yell the loudest. Good riddance to that cesspool.

That said, if they have forum rules, they should stick to them regardless of the popularity of the opinion. If users won't obey the rules and there aren't enough moderators, one option is to shut it down, I suppose.