Originally Posted by DashTrash

I love how there are so many opinions about nothing. None of us have read a single word yet. Can’t we wait until we can actually read something first? I have no opinion until I read it!!!

Originally Posted by Jersey

Its like the progressive federal income tax system but backwards. I wonder if TK is a giant loophole?

Originally Posted by Thor

I got news for ya, UAL is going to be a significantly smaller company, in fact corporate management has been very clear on that. It's going to be a smaller company with full size company debt. I'll read the AIP, but how they expect to put a bandaid on a gaping wound and not reduce headcount, that may well be the greatest ALPA sales job of my career. Or the greatest triumph. I guess we'll see, but if history serves.....

Originally Posted by bottoms up

When the company uses 2019 pax metrics as a determining factor for snap backs just remember that loads were at an all time high and you are probably looking at 3 years before those will return..possibly longer. So be prepared to sit there happy with whatever you agreed on for as long as it takes...The company will hold you to it..

Originally Posted by horrido27

Actually.. it does- There are two costs.

One is the old 'Time & Money'.. it costs us all valuable time which is translatable to money; ie.. to look at it, then digest it, have numerous discussions about it, then vote on it .. same applies to the union side of it.



And then there is the big COST. The cost in Unity of the pilot group. The fact that we are discussing how WE, The Pilot Group have to pay for the bottom 2850(+) to stay employed is already a cost. This has (and will) create a wound to this pilot group that will take years to heal.







So if we accept a 50% pay reduction it's "worth a closer look"...?*

*As an example

Make no mistake, Management has one goal- lower labor costs. And with that goal in mind, they want to lower labor costs for as long as possible.

This should have played out with an honest Early Out program back in June/July.. and with legit Furlough mitigations shortly thereafter.



Sure, I get where pilots want to see what the deal is. But a deal should never have been made if it involves concessions. And we already know that the company wants concessions. We only need to look back these past 3 years and see how our Contract talks have progressed.



Funny how pilots have forgotten we are still operating on a 2012 Contract. And will be operating under it until at least 2025.





I'm not an instant ''No" vote. I am an INSTANT NO VOTE for anything that is a concession.

If you or anyone else can explain to me how a furlough mitigation program is feasible without a pay concession, I'm all ears.





Yes and No.

Sure, the Industry has changed in the sense that we no longer have Flight Engineers (Sad), We have ETOPS, we fly with IPADS, we bid with PBS.

What has NOT changed, and never will .. is management will always be management. We a line cost. An employee number. Nothing more in the big scale of things.



Will it pass? Unknown. If the majority of legacy pilots vote based on their past experiences, it will NOT pass.







Unfortunately, I have seen PP on the 78 fleet almost constantly. Other fleets, not sure.. but possible. To believe that PP will not exist going forward is wrong. Premium Pay will always be around because the company believes (and knows) it's cheaper than keeping extra pilots. It will also exist because of mis-management.







^This^

Unfortunately.. (And I understand why), those in the furlough pot are also those who do not understand what the two Legacy Groups went through in the late 80's, 90's and 2000's. Not making an excuse, just stating a fact.

There is a reason why some pilots scream Full Pay to The Last Day. There is History behind it and the majority of the Post Merger New Hires don't understand that.





LOL

Post of the Day.

As someone who hasn't worn his pin in years, I find your comment funny. If you think a pin makes you a strong unionist, you still have a lot to learn.

We have SCABS who wear the pin.. proudly I might add but will never uphold the contract due to fear. (Hell, some don't even buy a drink, I read)

And we have slick ties who lean forward to help fellow pilots, and who Fly The Contract. Who ARE unionist.

*Some do wear the pin, but upside down~



Don't try to be the tough guy, Johnny Union who tries to bully people that don't agree with you.

There is a strong reason so many (UNION) pilots are voicing their displeasure and concerns with regards to modifying a contract that is already 2 years past due. When all is said and done, we will have ended up working under a 12yr contract if we are lucky enough to have a new one in 2025.



++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



Look, it's pretty obvious that the company outsmarted the union this time. They have shifted and put the "furlough" power into the pilot groups hands knowing that it will cause a divide amongst us.

Sure, you want to see some sort of furlough mitigation from the union out to us so we can vote on it.

But many of us are asking why are we even talking about this since this is a company screw up from back in April. They have been chipping away at this pilot group ever since.

A company who said they would negotiate in honest back in 2018 so we would have a new contract on time.

A company that spent United Continental Holdings profits to purchase aircraft to be flown by non United Pilots.

A company that announced (Through WARN Notices) furloughs of 2250.. but then announced an Early Out/Furlough Mitigation program to lower those numbers.. only to raise them by 600!



The damage that has been done will take years to fix.. keep that in mind.

And that isn't just within the union, it will also be between employee groups and management.



Flame Suit On

Always

Motch

Originally Posted by bottoms up

strong words there my friend. As you are someone in that 2850 I can tell your emotions are running high. You aren’t the first one to go through this. Concessions have never worked at any time. It’s a money in - money out problem. The company will gladly take any concessions and then ask for more or furlough more when “travel hasn’t rebounded to their appropriate levels”.

I’m all for furlough fund, volunteer my time monthly for an ALPA resource that pilots use every month & You can find me on the president’s circle of ALPA-PAC. Perhaps some of us have seen this a few times and maybe we aren’t buying it anymore. Just my view and my vote.

Frats

Originally Posted by jumppilot

Keep in mind it’s not in the company’s best interest to have a bunch of pilots making 50% MPG. They’d rather have one pilot flying 100%. And our union (I hope) addresses this issue with the AIP/LOA.

So I doubt we will be stuck with 50% or whatever for years and years. I bet this LOA has a sunset date around the summer time.

Originally Posted by PilotGR

I'm actually not in the 2850. I just believe this is a brotherhood and we are a Union. I do not believe in scare tactics. Nobody is taking concessions. Just need to save jobs and grow our airline so we can crush the competition once this nightmare passes.

Originally Posted by PilotGR

I'm actually not in the 2850. I just believe this is a brotherhood and we are a Union. I do not believe in scare tactics. Nobody is taking concessions. Just need to save jobs and grow our airline so we can crush the competition once this nightmare passes.