Best/Worst case scenarios and arguments
09-19-2020 | 07:25 PM
#21
Thread Starter
Fair and balanced.
Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Another view from another guy. Borrowed with permission.
<<• Dividing the Seniority List into 1/3 segments may be the most divisive thing I have ever heard of from ALPA
Agreed, this is the worst thing about this TA, but as a whole still provides a good to great benefit
• Destroying the contractual cornerstone of our pay matrix is not the camel’s nose, but at least a hump, possibly two, into the tent. MPG is a term that means Minimum Pay Guarantee! It is your financial safety net, and we are literally going to give it away!
A bit dramatic, we are not giving it away, we are reducing it temporarily, see section U-Q for timelines when things stop
• People will say that very few people will get paid MPG, because they get paid LPV/PTC. In normal times, I might agree for lineholders, but nearly 100% of RSVs get paid MPG. Indeed, under the current plan, there will be a significantly increased RSV presence for months, if not years to come.
Correct, if demand doesn't return, at least 2007 pilots will have a job until june 1st guaranteed possibly december with cares loan. And almost 2000 more for a longer time
• People espousing LPV/PTC May be forgetting that MPG has been the driver of the Line Construction metric. Accordingly, if we are going to dramatically reduce MPG and have thousands of “extra” pilots on the payroll, then what will happen to Line Values? Well, we already know from the current fleets not doing much flying…Lines built to below MPG!
Correct, true temporarily, a byproduct of carrying thousands of extra pilots
• Line Construction Floor (LCF), Line Construction Ceiling (LCC) and Line Production Average (LPA) are talked about as if they will not be touched. I’m here to say “That’s impossible!” However, you notice no-one is saying anything about it! What MPG will do is drag LCF waaaay down, but allow the Company to hold LCC at 90 hrs (current book on max hours), and LPA will be set anywhere the Company wants it.
Correct, again temporarily, and again a byproduct of carrying thousands of extra pilots
• What the destruction of MPG does, therefore, is slash the costs to carry pilots, and allows the Company the flexibility to either slash LPAs towards MPG or build lines all the way up to 90hrs, as you can see for yourself from the System Parameters Document they’re required to include with PBS.
this is literally the whole purpose of this TA, is to carry extra pilots until things stabilize
• Allowing such “variability” runs absolutely contrary to ALPA’s entire history of protections and is going to create significant angst with the current dislocations. Today, we have some fleets, seats and domiciles with virtually no flying, with MPG saving people’s livelihoods. However, we also have fleets, seats and domiciles that are running at full tilt, with Captain’s openly bragging of consecutive $50,000 MONTHS, and FOs regularly pulling down over $30,000! I don’t begrudge them their largesse, but start giving large swaths of the pilot group effective massive pay cuts, and we have just handed the Company a tool to create a furor!
Sorry not everyone is going to get a golden pony, but for the group as a whole this TA is a positive
• Pay. Do the math!
MPG reduction from 73 to 60 = 18% Pay cut
MPG reduction from 73 to 50 = 32% Pay cut
MPG reduction from 73 to 40 = 45% Pay cut
MPG reduction from 73 to 35 = 52% Pay cut
with no demand, no cares 2.0, no flying return and company not triggering termination section, true, while THOUSANDS of pilots keep their jobs and THOUSANDS of displacements are canceled.
These cuts are WORSE THAN THE BANKRUPTCY!
Sure sucks living in a pandemic and trying to look out for someone besides youself, huh?
MPG “only” went down to 65hrs in the C2003 Bankruptcy Contract, yet here we are, $17B in the bank, taking cuts GREATER than in Bankruptcy???
You're right, $17B in the bank, we should furlough the pilots we only need and give everyone else 95 hour lines and increase pay to $400 an hour
For what? Why?
If you don't see for what and why then you just don't see the other side of this
• We are now hearing that the TA will run for years, while the furloughs are only delayed until the end of May??? And, what “long term gains” are we getting for such a ridiculous set-up??? First Class Deadhead? $11K LTD? Some kind of RSV improvement? These are TINY things in comparison to the MASSIVE reductions in pay.
You should read the thing, 2 years max, less if more than 2007 are furloughed or cares 2.0 passes. 11k LTD, 655+ early retirements, 5% pay gain when demand returns sure is nice for a pandemic TA, I wish we could've gotten everyone a golden pony but here we are
• Lastly, for now, we have been SOLD THIS DEAL because it was the ultimate way of “Furlough Mitigation.” The Company came out and said they were going to furlough 2,250 pilots, in order to “right size.” ALPA agreed just to “talk” about mitigation ideas. Immediately, Carlson put out that the number was now NOT 2,250 (1,750 in Oct, 250 in Nov, and 250 in Dec), but had suddenly jumped to 3,900…or a convenient 1/3 of the pilot group, that allows for a nice clean “slice and dice” of the pilot group into 1/3rds!
You're absolutely right, inside job by the union and the company /s
However, it has become clear that this deal is NO LONGER a “furlough mitigation” deal, but a “furlough DEFERRAL” deal!
Call it what you want, this deal provides a very needed breather for thousands of pilots and a gain for thousands of more
We give for years, two years was floating around yesterday, but furloughs only get delayed for a few months until the end of May, per Tony!
Yes, 2007 pilots wont get furloughed until June 1st, hopefully not at all if demand returns, I'm sure if you cared about anyone but yourself or were in their shoes you would have no trouble seeing the positives of this
Now, I’ve seen some bad deals in my time, but come on!
I have seen some bad deals that only affect me in a non positive way too, but I saw the greater picture
You forgot thousands of canceled displacements, thousands of pilots and their families having time for things to snap back
We are in uncharted waters, about to be smashed against the rocks of hostile territory, and a schism within UAL ALPA that may never be repaired, and will be repeatedly capitalized on (in ways we cannot yet even imagine) by the Company.
A bit dramatic
This is not the time to throw away the foundational principles of our contract. IF this is the time, with $17B in the bank, what will they come back for in 2021, with “only $10B” in the bank? And if we get to $5B?
I think you should read the TA again, 2 years max for your mpg, probably less.
We need to stay strong, sit on our hands, and stop taking responsibility for the COMPANY’S DESIRE to furlough pilots AND DECIMATE OUR CONTRACT!
EAT THE JUNIOR!!!!
This is not our fault and we literally do not have the money to fix it for them! They just want us to pay for their “flexibility & variability” for a few years…while they STILL furlough pilots!>>
See worst case above if it passes
<<• Dividing the Seniority List into 1/3 segments may be the most divisive thing I have ever heard of from ALPA
Agreed, this is the worst thing about this TA, but as a whole still provides a good to great benefit
• Destroying the contractual cornerstone of our pay matrix is not the camel’s nose, but at least a hump, possibly two, into the tent. MPG is a term that means Minimum Pay Guarantee! It is your financial safety net, and we are literally going to give it away!
A bit dramatic, we are not giving it away, we are reducing it temporarily, see section U-Q for timelines when things stop
• People will say that very few people will get paid MPG, because they get paid LPV/PTC. In normal times, I might agree for lineholders, but nearly 100% of RSVs get paid MPG. Indeed, under the current plan, there will be a significantly increased RSV presence for months, if not years to come.
Correct, if demand doesn't return, at least 2007 pilots will have a job until june 1st guaranteed possibly december with cares loan. And almost 2000 more for a longer time
• People espousing LPV/PTC May be forgetting that MPG has been the driver of the Line Construction metric. Accordingly, if we are going to dramatically reduce MPG and have thousands of “extra” pilots on the payroll, then what will happen to Line Values? Well, we already know from the current fleets not doing much flying…Lines built to below MPG!
Correct, true temporarily, a byproduct of carrying thousands of extra pilots
• Line Construction Floor (LCF), Line Construction Ceiling (LCC) and Line Production Average (LPA) are talked about as if they will not be touched. I’m here to say “That’s impossible!” However, you notice no-one is saying anything about it! What MPG will do is drag LCF waaaay down, but allow the Company to hold LCC at 90 hrs (current book on max hours), and LPA will be set anywhere the Company wants it.
Correct, again temporarily, and again a byproduct of carrying thousands of extra pilots
• What the destruction of MPG does, therefore, is slash the costs to carry pilots, and allows the Company the flexibility to either slash LPAs towards MPG or build lines all the way up to 90hrs, as you can see for yourself from the System Parameters Document they’re required to include with PBS.
this is literally the whole purpose of this TA, is to carry extra pilots until things stabilize
• Allowing such “variability” runs absolutely contrary to ALPA’s entire history of protections and is going to create significant angst with the current dislocations. Today, we have some fleets, seats and domiciles with virtually no flying, with MPG saving people’s livelihoods. However, we also have fleets, seats and domiciles that are running at full tilt, with Captain’s openly bragging of consecutive $50,000 MONTHS, and FOs regularly pulling down over $30,000! I don’t begrudge them their largesse, but start giving large swaths of the pilot group effective massive pay cuts, and we have just handed the Company a tool to create a furor!
Sorry not everyone is going to get a golden pony, but for the group as a whole this TA is a positive
• Pay. Do the math!
MPG reduction from 73 to 60 = 18% Pay cut
MPG reduction from 73 to 50 = 32% Pay cut
MPG reduction from 73 to 40 = 45% Pay cut
MPG reduction from 73 to 35 = 52% Pay cut
with no demand, no cares 2.0, no flying return and company not triggering termination section, true, while THOUSANDS of pilots keep their jobs and THOUSANDS of displacements are canceled.
These cuts are WORSE THAN THE BANKRUPTCY!
Sure sucks living in a pandemic and trying to look out for someone besides youself, huh?
MPG “only” went down to 65hrs in the C2003 Bankruptcy Contract, yet here we are, $17B in the bank, taking cuts GREATER than in Bankruptcy???
You're right, $17B in the bank, we should furlough the pilots we only need and give everyone else 95 hour lines and increase pay to $400 an hour
For what? Why?
If you don't see for what and why then you just don't see the other side of this
• We are now hearing that the TA will run for years, while the furloughs are only delayed until the end of May??? And, what “long term gains” are we getting for such a ridiculous set-up??? First Class Deadhead? $11K LTD? Some kind of RSV improvement? These are TINY things in comparison to the MASSIVE reductions in pay.
You should read the thing, 2 years max, less if more than 2007 are furloughed or cares 2.0 passes. 11k LTD, 655+ early retirements, 5% pay gain when demand returns sure is nice for a pandemic TA, I wish we could've gotten everyone a golden pony but here we are
• Lastly, for now, we have been SOLD THIS DEAL because it was the ultimate way of “Furlough Mitigation.” The Company came out and said they were going to furlough 2,250 pilots, in order to “right size.” ALPA agreed just to “talk” about mitigation ideas. Immediately, Carlson put out that the number was now NOT 2,250 (1,750 in Oct, 250 in Nov, and 250 in Dec), but had suddenly jumped to 3,900…or a convenient 1/3 of the pilot group, that allows for a nice clean “slice and dice” of the pilot group into 1/3rds!
You're absolutely right, inside job by the union and the company /s
However, it has become clear that this deal is NO LONGER a “furlough mitigation” deal, but a “furlough DEFERRAL” deal!
Call it what you want, this deal provides a very needed breather for thousands of pilots and a gain for thousands of more
We give for years, two years was floating around yesterday, but furloughs only get delayed for a few months until the end of May, per Tony!
Yes, 2007 pilots wont get furloughed until June 1st, hopefully not at all if demand returns, I'm sure if you cared about anyone but yourself or were in their shoes you would have no trouble seeing the positives of this
Now, I’ve seen some bad deals in my time, but come on!
I have seen some bad deals that only affect me in a non positive way too, but I saw the greater picture
- The completely divisive carve up of the ISL
- Pay cuts in excess of bankruptcy
- Removal of our previously untouchable Minimum Pay Guarantee
- Expansion of our Line Construction parameters
- A slight delay in furloughs
- A few shiny objects brought forward from our TWO YEAR PAST DUE NEW UPA!
You forgot thousands of canceled displacements, thousands of pilots and their families having time for things to snap back
We are in uncharted waters, about to be smashed against the rocks of hostile territory, and a schism within UAL ALPA that may never be repaired, and will be repeatedly capitalized on (in ways we cannot yet even imagine) by the Company.
A bit dramatic
This is not the time to throw away the foundational principles of our contract. IF this is the time, with $17B in the bank, what will they come back for in 2021, with “only $10B” in the bank? And if we get to $5B?
I think you should read the TA again, 2 years max for your mpg, probably less.
We need to stay strong, sit on our hands, and stop taking responsibility for the COMPANY’S DESIRE to furlough pilots AND DECIMATE OUR CONTRACT!
EAT THE JUNIOR!!!!
This is not our fault and we literally do not have the money to fix it for them! They just want us to pay for their “flexibility & variability” for a few years…while they STILL furlough pilots!>>
See worst case above if it passes
09-19-2020 | 08:00 PM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 3,076
Likes: 3
From: The GF of FUPM
I suggest that you post your reply on the New Forum and have at it there. It was lifted from there with the authors permission. I have no doubt that he'd welcome the opportunity to discuss it.
09-19-2020 | 08:10 PM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 145
Likes: 0
09-19-2020 | 08:13 PM
#24
Thread Starter
Fair and balanced.
Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Let's see, we're up to 5 forums now? I think I'm good. Feel free to copy my posts over there though, you got my permission too!
09-20-2020 | 06:24 AM
#25
On Reserve
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 156
Likes: 1
From: Guppy Captain
I posted these replies in the other thread. But, since you have reposted, I will as well:
I really wish people would stop using this argument. You clearly don’t understand what MPG is or what it does for you. It sets the MINIMUM pay you can expect to receive every month. It has nothing to do with how much flying you do. Management would be happy as a clam to pay the line holders whatever it takes to cover the schedule up to UPA/FAR limits, and leave the poor souls on reserve with 36.5 hours of pay.
...people keeping using the argument that reduced MPG will fix itself because management doesn’t want unproductive pilots. MPG doesn’t make pilots unproductive. Caps would make pilots unproductive. Management also HATES paying pilots a penny more than they have to. Reducing MPG definitely helps them with that.
Argument:
The company is using this so that they can make us essentially part-time employees.
Answer:
There are clear snapbacks in place to bring mpg back into place. Do you really think they want thousands of pilot sitting around at half mpg while paying for their benefits? That is not efficient. They want to squeeze every bit of productivity out of you. Look at what happened in 2008-2009 after the furlough people were flying almost 100 hours a month.
The company is using this so that they can make us essentially part-time employees.
Answer:
There are clear snapbacks in place to bring mpg back into place. Do you really think they want thousands of pilot sitting around at half mpg while paying for their benefits? That is not efficient. They want to squeeze every bit of productivity out of you. Look at what happened in 2008-2009 after the furlough people were flying almost 100 hours a month.
I really wish people would stop using this argument. You clearly don’t understand what MPG is or what it does for you. It sets the MINIMUM pay you can expect to receive every month. It has nothing to do with how much flying you do. Management would be happy as a clam to pay the line holders whatever it takes to cover the schedule up to UPA/FAR limits, and leave the poor souls on reserve with 36.5 hours of pay.
...people keeping using the argument that reduced MPG will fix itself because management doesn’t want unproductive pilots. MPG doesn’t make pilots unproductive. Caps would make pilots unproductive. Management also HATES paying pilots a penny more than they have to. Reducing MPG definitely helps them with that.
09-20-2020 | 06:33 AM
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 3,076
Likes: 3
From: The GF of FUPM
https://www.unitedpilots.org/
When a forum starts hacking away at members who express differing viewpoints and takes on a certain bent, it's no longer a forum. Not quite Tokyo Rose, but it's one hell of a slippery slope. Vocal opposition to this AIP surfaced and posts started getting moderated. Then members were banned. It certainly seemed like "our way or the highway". Rumor has it that it was being roiled by threats of legal action against MIGS by our very union. And now one of the MODS over there is taking pot shots at those he deposed. Stay classy San Diego!
WHAT KIND OF CRAP IS THAT and who wants to participate in a one-way flow of ideas and opinions? At a time like this we need to look at every option, not just the ones being presented to us by TeamTodd. JMO.
Give the new one a look.
When a forum starts hacking away at members who express differing viewpoints and takes on a certain bent, it's no longer a forum. Not quite Tokyo Rose, but it's one hell of a slippery slope. Vocal opposition to this AIP surfaced and posts started getting moderated. Then members were banned. It certainly seemed like "our way or the highway". Rumor has it that it was being roiled by threats of legal action against MIGS by our very union. And now one of the MODS over there is taking pot shots at those he deposed. Stay classy San Diego!
WHAT KIND OF CRAP IS THAT and who wants to participate in a one-way flow of ideas and opinions? At a time like this we need to look at every option, not just the ones being presented to us by TeamTodd. JMO.
Give the new one a look.
Last edited by oldmako; 09-20-2020 at 06:52 AM.
09-20-2020 | 06:42 AM
#27
Line Holder
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,091
Likes: 1
$17 Billion cash in the bank. Sounds good. I’ll go emulate that today here at home and take the max cash advance on each credit card and enjoy swimming in that cash windfall. All while far more keeps going out than comes in, month after month. No worries. Oh wait, got to pay back the cash advances with interest? What? But I had all that cash!
09-20-2020 | 08:25 AM
#28
Thread Starter
Fair and balanced.
Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
https://www.unitedpilots.org/
When a forum starts hacking away at members who express differing viewpoints and takes on a certain bent, it's no longer a forum. Not quite Tokyo Rose, but it's one hell of a slippery slope. Vocal opposition to this AIP surfaced and posts started getting moderated. Then members were banned. It certainly seemed like "our way or the highway". Rumor has it that it was being roiled by threats of legal action against MIGS by our very union. And now one of the MODS over there is taking pot shots at those he deposed. Stay classy San Diego!
WHAT KIND OF CRAP IS THAT and who wants to participate in a one-way flow of ideas and opinions? At a time like this we need to look at every option, not just the ones being presented to us by TeamTodd. JMO.
Give the new one a look.
When a forum starts hacking away at members who express differing viewpoints and takes on a certain bent, it's no longer a forum. Not quite Tokyo Rose, but it's one hell of a slippery slope. Vocal opposition to this AIP surfaced and posts started getting moderated. Then members were banned. It certainly seemed like "our way or the highway". Rumor has it that it was being roiled by threats of legal action against MIGS by our very union. And now one of the MODS over there is taking pot shots at those he deposed. Stay classy San Diego!
WHAT KIND OF CRAP IS THAT and who wants to participate in a one-way flow of ideas and opinions? At a time like this we need to look at every option, not just the ones being presented to us by TeamTodd. JMO.
Give the new one a look.
I think 4 forums is enough for me.
