serce

Unfortunately I can't agree. In my experience Delta pilots tend to be a different breed. I realize that my experience is anecdotal but through out the years I have never met a more arrogant and unpleasant group of pilots than Delta pilots. Not to say that it's the majority but the percentage of "sky gods" is certainly higher at Delta. I have observed more than a few friends change into "world's best pilots" after less than a year at the Mothership.

​​​​​​Having said that... Pick the airline that will allow you to live in base. Also, the industry is so dynamic that you just never know what the right choice is untill you retire. I remember people leaving Legacies to go to Southwest after 9/11 because that really was the right choice at the time and now the opposite is happening.

JoePatroni

Like “George?”

Cringeworthy

nene

By "right choice" you mean they were furloughed without a job from the legacies and SWA was hiring with an actual paycheck?

That choice is an easy "right" when you have no job or health insurance.

Post 9-11 was a huge transition as the legacies all parked their three piloted 727's, shrank gauge down to RJ's to hold slots/marketshare, prepping for consolidation with additional parkings, raising retirement age from 60-65, and eventually started the process of restructuring PWA's to more match SWA's, IE no more pensions. The only way to get that done was a trip through BK court which they all did eventually.

All the legacies went from hiring gangbusters in 2000 to furloughs by 2001.

All In

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIuU5x8jD70

Aquaticus

I wouldn't listen to a delta pilots opinion about United. They drink managements propoganda about how amazing they are on a pretty frightening basis. I would ask a few non-odd friends who have made the jump to different airlines about how their last few trips went and the United people will have enjoyed their trips with a few small exceptions. There is a pretty wide gap in culture that shouldn't be ignored.

That deltas guys numbers were a few years outdated. UAL is currently around 14000 pilots on the seniority list RIGHT now. Our seniority list is only updated every July here at UAL. Delta owning Europe prepandemic is an opinion. Delta lacks significant number of widebodies, outsources a lot of international, a lot more non-union labor boosting bottom line, and flies with two captains on a majority of augmented routes. Plusses and minuses with each. Their profit sharing uses a more favorable formula than ours that is significant but we have more widebody people on payroll with a lot more widebody first officers. Having those dollars spread around more evenly vs having pools of people chasing those dollars to make you have a higher relative seniority on a narrow body for years... everything has a Ying to the yang.

LTD is a much more nuanced conversation than most people are willing to comprehend. Ours is tax free up to 11,000 right now, 90 days to activate, and to get the max 11,000 you would need an hourly rate in the mid 260's (I can't remember but you need to be left seat) to get the max, and if you live in nj or california with disability you have to pay that back. Deltas formula is higher with a retirement contribution but they have a different calculation for the payout based on your past 12 months that I don't actually like. Some plans aren't after tax dollars as well so it is very difficult to get a fair comparison. We have a ways to go and the last tumi TA had some improvements that will hopefully be improved upon further.

DashTrash

Regarding Delta Pilots being a different breed, I would agree in part. The Delta South Pilots are definitely a different breed that believe they’re “sky gods”. Well at least enough of them that make it noticeable. The Delta North Pilots, not so much!!! When I flew at Compass, I became very familiar with both cultures. They are different!!!

Delta has higher profit sharing, but at the cost of much less widebody flying that they actually perform. I’d rather have the widebody pay rate, than the profit sharing because the pay rate will always be around. The profit sharing is a “maybe”.

cskafan123

Was there a change in the LTD plan in the TA that you guys voted down?

Just curious which LCC you are talking about? Spirit?

Zoomie

As for United numbers, we have just under 12,500 ACTIVE per the latest vacancy bid.

Remember we still have a lot of guys who took the early out during the pandemic that won't be officially purged from the seniority list until they hit 65. The seniority numbers won't be accurate until this upcoming summer. I think everyone who took the early out will age out by then.

We also had a large portion of pilots who took mil leave prior to the pandemic, so that also skews the numbers.

The number that matters is the Active pilots when you see the seniority numbers. That's the most accurate when the bulletin goes out.
We are still at roughly 2000-2500 pilots smaller than DL or AA as a rough gestimate.
If United Next comes to fruition, within 5 years, we could easily be much larger that AA or DL.

Pre-pandemic, vacancy 20-02, we were at just over 11,500 active pilots.
The early retirements and Leave's of Absence took us down to about 10,100 active pilots back in 21.
Now we've recovered and gained a net of just under 2500 pilots in just about 15 months, some hiring, some returns from leave. Although we've been hiring in the meantime, remember that we also have people that are "hired" then leave for DL/SWA/AA/FDX/UPS pretty quickly after getting hired. All the hiring numbers we hear don't take that attrition into account.
So all those fancy numbers of pilots we hired really aren't what matters. What matters is the number of active pilots grow. That's when you see real movement. That's been pretty aggressive lately. We've restored or grown our active pilot count by almost 25% in just over 1 year.

Be safe out there y'all. A lot of new people here and everywhere.

Boeing Aviator

Understanding LTD

C12 Update, Jul 22


Editor's Note: The TA Ballot is still “open”. As such, this reprint from C12 offers a perspective on the Long Term Disability (LTD) portion of the TA. It is presented here for your consideration to supplement MEC provided resources.


When the Con statement against the TA was written, it was not possible to detail every inadequate provision.


While the TA makes improvements to our existing, rather poor Long Term Disability (LTD) benefits, those improvements continue to fall well below the gold standard, Delta LTD.

Many pilots do not understand the importance of LTD until the day comes when they suddenly find themselves out on LTD. Additionally, most pilots who go out on LTD do so during their highest paid, most important, retirement savings years

Delta pilots on LTD have no maximum benefit cap. They get a true 50% of their Final Average Earnings rather than a capped amount. Under our TA, most of our pilots LTD dollars are fixed at a cap, and not truly 50% of 1026 hours/85.5 hours per month due to being capped.

Delta pilots on disability immediately receive a double Defined Contribution of 32% of their LTD benefit, such that they are made whole for their retirement contributions. Delta’s LTD is paid at 50% of their Final Average Earnings but their retirement calculation is based on 100% of their Final Average Earnings. Sixteen percent of all of the pre-LTD income is the same number as 32% of half of the pre-LTD income. By contrast, our TA continues to impose a low maximum benefit cap, much less than a pilot would be making if they were not out on LTD, even with the tax advantage. While our TA would, after a 36 month waiting period, provide an extra 16% to the benefit cap, this money would not go into our retirement plan to grow tax deferred. Instead it’s an extra 16% added to the LTD cap, to help make up for lost defined contributions while on LTD, which further decreases our tax free LTD treatment overall as compared to Delta’s taxable LTD plan. Currently a large percentage of pilots would yield less than a true 16% of the 50% (compared to Delta's 32% of the 50%), due to the LTD cap being less than 50% of their earnings.
Essentially all DAL pilots on day one of LTD receive full pre-LTD defined contribution (100% of their defined contributions from their Final Average Earnings) while on LTD, where our pilots under our TA get nothing for 36 months and then only 50%, which could be less due to the cap, not tax deferred. For simple math, on a pre-LTD income of $100,000, and an LTD of $50,000, at Delta a pilot would get $16,000 in defined contribution to their retirement. Under our TA, a United pilot would receive $8000, not tax-deferred. As the numbers rise, our capped LTD results in a greater disparity and lower percentage, of less than our TA’s 16% compared to Delta's 32%.

Additionally, Delta pays 100% of LTD plan premiums. This obviously benefits every single active Delta pilot. The fact that Delta pays the entire LTD premium is also beneficial for pilots who never go on LTD during their career in that they do not ever have premiums withheld for a benefit not used. While Delta LTD benefits are taxable and have an income offset for the first 36 months that the pilot is on disability, the lack of fixed and low max benefit caps, along with their double, 32%, immediate defined benefit retirement contributions, more than make up for the taxation.

The takeaway is Delta is getting a bigger gross benefit and a full 16% on their Final Average Earnings pre-LTD where our TA provides 16% on only half of 85.5 hours, and capped to less for most pilots.

Delta also has pilot short term disability and pilot mutual aid programs, which replace all of their disabled pilots’ income to 90% of their Final Average Earnings during shorter term disabilities. Finally, their sick leave is based upon years of service and resets each year.
A solution to get to a yearly reset system, along with LTD benefits and other benefits, are worthy of your opinion in the survey, if desired.

cskafan123

Pretty good information here. Sadly many don't think having a great LTD isn't as important as scope or pay in the contract negotiations. Imo, for a professionals pilot LTD must be #1 prority, then retirement then everything else.

Btw, as ALPA members you guys should be getting a supplemental insurance from the Union, right? Is that a fix amount?