Captain Feeds Pax on Delayed Fight
10-02-2024 | 06:43 AM
#61
It's 5 o'clock somewhere
Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 2,671
Likes: 17
If you really read FAR 117 carefully......and I will contend many people have not and that's okay. However many will be surprised to find out that a crew extending or NOT extending is actually a Captain/PIC decision. Now as a matter of good CRM and maintaining a good reputation most Captains will/should gauge the opinions of thier FOs/IRO's but there is no legal requirement for them to do so.
If a FO or IRO does not wish to extend and the Captain does, their only option is to call out fatigued, or call Pro Standards or something.
I certainly don't agree with this but it is what it is. Some may say what's the difference. The difference is that a fatigue has two possible outcomes: APPROVED or NOT APPROVED. where as a FAR 117 non Extension is an outcome all in to itself.
If a FO or IRO does not wish to extend and the Captain does, their only option is to call out fatigued, or call Pro Standards or something.
I certainly don't agree with this but it is what it is. Some may say what's the difference. The difference is that a fatigue has two possible outcomes: APPROVED or NOT APPROVED. where as a FAR 117 non Extension is an outcome all in to itself.
Both pilots have to certify they are not fatigued before every flight. A captain cannot order an FO to fly and cannot accept an extension for an FO.
10-02-2024 | 06:51 AM
#62
off weekends (if Reserve)
Joined: May 2023
Posts: 1,161
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10-02-2024 | 06:56 AM
#63
It's 5 o'clock somewhere
Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 2,671
Likes: 17
So if you don't certify fit for for duty then you're not accepting an extension... get it? A captain can't do this on an FO's behalf. A captain cannot accept an extension and order an FO to fly. Both pilots have to accept.
Do you even airline bro?
Do you even airline bro?
10-02-2024 | 08:28 AM
#66
off weekends (if Reserve)
Joined: May 2023
Posts: 1,161
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For augmented and unaugmented operations, if unforeseen operational circumstances arise prior to takeoff:
(1) The pilot in command and the certificate holder may extend the maximum flight duty period permitted in Tables B or C of this part up to 2 hours. The pilot in command and the certificate holder may also extend the maximum combined flight duty period and reserve availability periodlimits specified in § 117.21(c)(3) and (4) of this part up to 2 hours.
Luckily our company appears to have more restrictive language in the FOM as you referenced although.....but the actual language from the FAA above doesn't mention crew member, it just mentions PIC.
10-02-2024 | 09:02 AM
#67
It's 5 o'clock somewhere
Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 2,671
Likes: 17
Great strategy......provided if you are not already taxing during an extended tarmac delay
For augmented and unaugmented operations, if unforeseen operational circumstances arise prior to takeoff:
(1) The pilot in command and the certificate holder may extend the maximum flight duty period permitted in Tables B or C of this part up to 2 hours. The pilot in command and the certificate holder may also extend the maximum combined flight duty period and reserve availability periodlimits specified in § 117.21(c)(3) and (4) of this part up to 2 hours.
.......and the PIC must concur
Luckily our company appears to have more restrictive language in the FOM as you referenced although.....but the actual language from the FAA above doesn't mention crew member, it just mentions PIC.
For augmented and unaugmented operations, if unforeseen operational circumstances arise prior to takeoff:
(1) The pilot in command and the certificate holder may extend the maximum flight duty period permitted in Tables B or C of this part up to 2 hours. The pilot in command and the certificate holder may also extend the maximum combined flight duty period and reserve availability periodlimits specified in § 117.21(c)(3) and (4) of this part up to 2 hours.
.......and the PIC must concur
Luckily our company appears to have more restrictive language in the FOM as you referenced although.....but the actual language from the FAA above doesn't mention crew member, it just mentions PIC.
So you'll accept an extension during taxi and tell your FO tough crap you're going? You must be on a lot of bid avoid lists.
Just admit you were wrong and move on dude. You look foolish defending a bad position. What is it with pilots who are incapable of admitting they were wrong? Terrible quality in a pilot and leader.
10-02-2024 | 12:47 PM
#68
off weekends (if Reserve)
Joined: May 2023
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Well now the situation changes to taxi because you were wrong in your previous example.
So you'll accept an extension during taxi and tell your FO tough crap you're going? You must be on a lot of bid avoid lists.
Just admit you were wrong and move on dude. You look foolish defending a bad position. What is it with pilots who are incapable of admitting they were wrong? Terrible quality in a pilot and leader.
So you'll accept an extension during taxi and tell your FO tough crap you're going? You must be on a lot of bid avoid lists.
Just admit you were wrong and move on dude. You look foolish defending a bad position. What is it with pilots who are incapable of admitting they were wrong? Terrible quality in a pilot and leader.
I will admit I hadn't looked at the more restrictive language in the FOM......all I really was saying (a few posts up) is that very few people are aware of the exact language of FAR 117 when it comes to extensions. I cut and pasted the exact language and I think the words speak for themselves.
I certainly wasn't aware when (at a previous carier not protected by more company restrictive FOM language) a smart acss captain pointed out to me that if he wanted to he could say I was extending........
10-02-2024 | 01:08 PM
#69
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Originally Posted by 11atsomto;[url=tel:3841384
3841384]For the record I am more of a NOT extending but I would make exceptions on occasions.
I will admit I hadn't looked at the more restrictive language in the FOM......all I really was saying (a few posts up) is that very few people are aware of the exact language of FAR 117 when it comes to extensions. I cut and pasted the exact language and I think the words speak for themselves.
I certainly wasn't aware when (at a previous carier not protected by more company restrictive FOM language) a smart acss captain pointed out to me that if he wanted to he could say I was extending........
I will admit I hadn't looked at the more restrictive language in the FOM......all I really was saying (a few posts up) is that very few people are aware of the exact language of FAR 117 when it comes to extensions. I cut and pasted the exact language and I think the words speak for themselves.
I certainly wasn't aware when (at a previous carier not protected by more company restrictive FOM language) a smart acss captain pointed out to me that if he wanted to he could say I was extending........
10-02-2024 | 02:50 PM
#70
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Joined: Feb 2014
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From: Head pillow fluffer, Assistant bed maker
I think we are failing to get the most important information. What kind of pizzas? deep dish? thing crust? what toppings? dear god i hope there was no pinapple and canadian bacon.
Last edited by worstpilotever; 10-02-2024 at 03:08 PM.
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