Standards Meeting Notes
09-08-2025 | 01:10 PM
#51
Line Holder
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 949
Likes: 58
Let me start out by saying I have lots of friends at NK and feel for every single one of them. They have a lot of good people at their company. There but for the grace of God go I.
That being said, I think you're making personal what simply isn't. I have not once heard SK ever celebrating individual people losing their jobs, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. The reality is in this business there are winners and losers. Not as people, but as companies. And SK has been saying for years now what most of us have known; the ULCC model, and especially NK, are not likely to succeed long term. As things have accelerated in that regard, the rhetoric surrounding it has shifted from a "when, not if," to a "how soon." You're interpreting that as actively rooting for their employees' losses of livelihood which is a huge leap in logic. Everything I've seen him say was factual and narrowly-focused on the competition between the businesses as singular entities.
His responsibility is to United. In this business, your gains often come at the expense of others. We knew that when we signed up, and none of us will know until the end of our careers if we made the right decision. For better or for worse, our current system doesn't afford leaders of businesses the opportunity to be sensitive to the individual employees at companies we're competing against. He would be derelict in his fiduciary duty to United if he said "let's leave our competitor alive to keep their employees working." I wouldn't expect any competitor not to try to kick United when it's down.
It's just business.
That being said, I think you're making personal what simply isn't. I have not once heard SK ever celebrating individual people losing their jobs, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. The reality is in this business there are winners and losers. Not as people, but as companies. And SK has been saying for years now what most of us have known; the ULCC model, and especially NK, are not likely to succeed long term. As things have accelerated in that regard, the rhetoric surrounding it has shifted from a "when, not if," to a "how soon." You're interpreting that as actively rooting for their employees' losses of livelihood which is a huge leap in logic. Everything I've seen him say was factual and narrowly-focused on the competition between the businesses as singular entities.
His responsibility is to United. In this business, your gains often come at the expense of others. We knew that when we signed up, and none of us will know until the end of our careers if we made the right decision. For better or for worse, our current system doesn't afford leaders of businesses the opportunity to be sensitive to the individual employees at companies we're competing against. He would be derelict in his fiduciary duty to United if he said "let's leave our competitor alive to keep their employees working." I wouldn't expect any competitor not to try to kick United when it's down.
It's just business.
09-08-2025 | 03:19 PM
#52
Now Old
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 108
Likes: 59
From: Bent
21-R Hiring Standards
Subject to other legal obligations, the Company shall make reasonable efforts to fill Pilot vacancies with the individuals who satisfy United’s hiring standards, who have previously worked for carriers represented by ALPA, and who are no longer working for those carriers for economic reasons such as lay-offs or the shutdown of that carrier.
09-09-2025 | 06:29 AM
#53
Perennial Reserve
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 14,183
Likes: 238
Not exactly.
21-R Hiring Standards
Subject to other legal obligations, the Company shall make reasonable efforts to fill Pilot vacancies with the individuals who satisfy United’s hiring standards, who have previously worked for carriers represented by ALPA, and who are no longer working for those carriers for economic reasons such as lay-offs or the shutdown of that carrier.
21-R Hiring Standards
Subject to other legal obligations, the Company shall make reasonable efforts to fill Pilot vacancies with the individuals who satisfy United’s hiring standards, who have previously worked for carriers represented by ALPA, and who are no longer working for those carriers for economic reasons such as lay-offs or the shutdown of that carrier.
Not saying UAL is hiring NK guys out of the goodness of their hearts, it’s a cadre of trained and experienced people that they can use while keeping regional people in the regional feeders a little longer. It’s a good business decision for them too, but this CBA clause really doesn’t compel them to do it in any meaningful way.
09-09-2025 | 06:40 AM
#54
Line Holder
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,980
Likes: 15
From: 737 CAPT
Said the same thing to my charm school class in 2019. He wasn't the "boss with the final say" of any of his ideas. Got the sense that he was happy to be working for someone (Oscar) who let him run and improve the operations and hubs. Specifically mentioned that it was ludicrous the previous CEO floated the idea of closing DEN when he saw it as a gem with great employees that needed to be given the chance to be the money maker he saw in its true potential.
09-09-2025 | 07:57 AM
#55
Line Holder
Joined: Dec 2023
Posts: 391
Likes: 29
“Reasonable efforts” is one of those weasel word expressions that legally means nothing. Since United sets United hiring standards, and don’t exactly announce them, not to mention they constantly change with the hiring market (today a four year degree, tomorrow volunteer work at a cat rescue shelter, etc.) Plus, who could have standing to sue for breach of contract - pretty much nobody except members of UAL ALPA, who by definition already were hired and hence weren’t harmed by the alleged breech.
Not saying UAL is hiring NK guys out of the goodness of their hearts, it’s a cadre of trained and experienced people that they can use while keeping regional people in the regional feeders a little longer. It’s a good business decision for them too, but this CBA clause really doesn’t compel them to do it in any meaningful way.
Not saying UAL is hiring NK guys out of the goodness of their hearts, it’s a cadre of trained and experienced people that they can use while keeping regional people in the regional feeders a little longer. It’s a good business decision for them too, but this CBA clause really doesn’t compel them to do it in any meaningful way.
09-09-2025 | 08:57 AM
#57
Line Holder
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 1,124
Likes: 70
From: AOG
I think that the issue that most of us have is that the language of 21-R is very weak. To truly make it effective is should read that the airline shall grant interviews to any affected ALPA pilot. Rather, 21-R in its current form just awards additional points in an ever changing formula. It needs to be improved.
09-09-2025 | 09:26 AM
#58
Line Holder
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 740
Likes: 19
You say “most of us” would like it improved but it’s in the contract “most of us” voted for. I think it works and we will certainly still interview and hire a fair number of pilots from any furloughing ALPA carrier when we’re hiring, but so should others. I don’t want the companies hands tied if there’s a compelling reason to pass by someone’s resume. I recall when SWA was hiring some Aloha pilots they had no interest in taking every single one. At some point that’s gonna swing the company culture and isn’t a perfect solution.
09-09-2025 | 10:19 AM
#59
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 5,508
Likes: 109
Originally Posted by greatmovieistar;[url=tel:3947003
3947003[/url]]Sorry bro, I am not CEO of a major airline going on National TV wishing thousands of pilots go out in the streets without jobs. But hey you can get preferential hiring here starting over at the bottom of the list lol. Plus where did I wish for your demise? Karma is a B and I won't be the one administering it.
Post evidence of him saying these words or shut up.
09-09-2025 | 10:47 AM
#60
Line Holder
Joined: Jul 2022
Posts: 1,592
Likes: 153
From: 787 FO
Could you show me a pilot group with superior language? Contractual language is just part of such efforts that are inculcated at United where ALPA has been more successful than any other pilot group in getting fellow pilots whose airlines were in trouble hired and it has benefitted the airline greatly. Ex-Pan Am, Eastern and others have brought all kinds of great ideas and improvements to United and United ALPA.
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