ua/co sen. list
08-01-2010 | 08:36 AM
#21
On Reserve
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 169
Likes: 0
Ya'll are right. Sorry about the old merger policy in my post.
On a tangential thought, this is one of the few areas where I am sensitive to what the decisions our MECs make, actually cost the airline. It's why we need an integrated list that everyone can live with. If there are artificial sweeteners added, like fences, pay protections or Tony's proposed non-portable seniority system, it can end up driving the real cost of staffing this monster beyond costs that are reasonably assumed on the front end. Granted some pilots would become beneficiaries, but that type of a windfall is not worth the aggravation (read anti-pilot motivation) it causes management in future negotiations, when compared to an across the board solid contract.
So we agree? Transitions Agreement, JCBA, ISL, "system flush bid", in that order?
On a tangential thought, this is one of the few areas where I am sensitive to what the decisions our MECs make, actually cost the airline. It's why we need an integrated list that everyone can live with. If there are artificial sweeteners added, like fences, pay protections or Tony's proposed non-portable seniority system, it can end up driving the real cost of staffing this monster beyond costs that are reasonably assumed on the front end. Granted some pilots would become beneficiaries, but that type of a windfall is not worth the aggravation (read anti-pilot motivation) it causes management in future negotiations, when compared to an across the board solid contract.
So we agree? Transitions Agreement, JCBA, ISL, "system flush bid", in that order?
What/who is Tony's proposed non-portable seniority system? Thanks
08-01-2010 | 09:02 AM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 230
Likes: 0
The working CAL pilots HAVE a no furlough clause right now. What happens in 2 years? Working CAL pilots with 7 years on property are exchanged with furloughed UAL pilots with less than than 4 years on property. Sorry, No Thanx.
Fix the UAL Scope problem and we should all be ok. DOH is DOA.
Fix the UAL Scope problem and we should all be ok. DOH is DOA.
Last edited by Fritzthepilot; 08-01-2010 at 09:41 AM.
08-01-2010 | 09:15 AM
#23
Banned
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 172
Likes: 0
5-B. Acceptance of Integrated Seniority List.
Subject only to the conditions
stated below, the Parties will accept the results of the Seniority List Integration and incorporate them in the Joint Collective Bargaining Agreement.
(i) The Integrated Seniority List shall have only prospective effect. Specifically, and without limiting the generality of the foregoing, the following conditions shall apply:
a. There shall be no "system flush" whereby a Pilot may displace another
Pilot from the latter’s position as a result of the implementation of the
Integrated Seniority List or the implementation or expiration of any
condition or restriction; and
b. Pilots on furlough status at the time the Integrated Seniority List is
implemented may not bump or displace pilots in active status at that time; and
c. Pilots who, at the time of implementation of an integrated seniority list, are in the process of completing or who have completed qualification training for a new position (e.g., B-777 Captain or A-319 First Officer) may be assigned to the position for which they are being or have been trained,
stated below, the Parties will accept the results of the Seniority List Integration and incorporate them in the Joint Collective Bargaining Agreement.
(i) The Integrated Seniority List shall have only prospective effect. Specifically, and without limiting the generality of the foregoing, the following conditions shall apply:
a. There shall be no "system flush" whereby a Pilot may displace another
Pilot from the latter’s position as a result of the implementation of the
Integrated Seniority List or the implementation or expiration of any
condition or restriction; and
b. Pilots on furlough status at the time the Integrated Seniority List is
implemented may not bump or displace pilots in active status at that time; and
c. Pilots who, at the time of implementation of an integrated seniority list, are in the process of completing or who have completed qualification training for a new position (e.g., B-777 Captain or A-319 First Officer) may be assigned to the position for which they are being or have been trained,
regardless of their relative standing on the Integrated Seniority List.
08-01-2010 | 02:48 PM
#24
Ben Salley
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 924
Likes: 0
From: Left
I try not to Fritz, but I have to be wary. Most of the UAL guys couldn't be vocal enough about the 16 year AAA furloughees being placed behind working AWA probationary pilots. It seems that we ALL have had a change of heart. Looking forward to having the UAL furloughees coming to CAL if conditions permit.
08-01-2010 | 04:07 PM
#25
Keep Calm Chive ON
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,086
Likes: 0
From: Boeing's Plastic Jet Button Pusher - 787
I try not to Fritz, but I have to be wary. Most of the UAL guys couldn't be vocal enough about the 16 year AAA furloughees being placed behind working AWA probationary pilots. It seems that we ALL have had a change of heart. Looking forward to having the UAL furloughees coming to CAL if conditions permit.
In all fairness......What he 'may not' understand is what you have been through 'live and in person'.......a'la the infamous USAirways/AWA merger. If anyone has a reason to sleep with "one eye open" during a process such as this (as far as something 'recent'), it would be you.
Just say'ing.....
SC
08-01-2010 | 04:17 PM
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 791
Likes: 0
Earlier in the thread "Tony Nelson" had suggested an idea that senior pilots could bid new bases, but not use their system seniority, thereby enjoying the "new base" but not at the expense of the existing pilots.
Good catch Skypest! I glossed right over that point because I didn't consider the transition agreement as part of a question about SLI. The only way people will get bumped from base is by reductions and the only way people will enter a new base is if there are vacancies. That will have a dampening effect on base personnel changes, but I expect to see lots of rearranging of equipment in the first several years while the new business plan is proven.
Good catch Skypest! I glossed right over that point because I didn't consider the transition agreement as part of a question about SLI. The only way people will get bumped from base is by reductions and the only way people will enter a new base is if there are vacancies. That will have a dampening effect on base personnel changes, but I expect to see lots of rearranging of equipment in the first several years while the new business plan is proven.
08-01-2010 | 05:46 PM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 230
Likes: 0
I try not to Fritz, but I have to be wary. Most of the UAL guys couldn't be vocal enough about the 16 year AAA furloughees being placed behind working AWA probationary pilots. It seems that we ALL have had a change of heart. Looking forward to having the UAL furloughees coming to CAL if conditions permit.
Fritz
08-01-2010 | 08:36 PM
#28
Line Holder
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 943
Likes: 0
From: 747 Captain, retired
The working CAL pilots HAVE a no furlough clause right now. What happens in 2 years? Working CAL pilots with 7 years on property are exchanged with furloughed UAL pilots with less than than 4 years on property. Sorry, No Thanx.
Fix the UAL Scope problem and we should all be ok. DOH is DOA.
Fix the UAL Scope problem and we should all be ok. DOH is DOA.
08-01-2010 | 09:00 PM
#29
Widebody
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 777
Likes: 0
From: 777 CAP
Doh
Unlike US/AW and NW/DL SLI negotiations, I serioulsly doubt either side suggests DOH. Senior UA pilots are against it, as we have very few pilots hired prior to 1985. I imagine junior CO pilots are against it as we have very few pilots hired after 2001.
08-02-2010 | 04:13 AM
#30
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 363
Likes: 0
As a 2x ual furlough hired 99 I'd love DOH but in all honesty don't think it is really fair. Seems that DL/NW kinda set the stage with a relative seniority blend. The only other thing I could think of would be separating those hired before and after 9/11?
Obviously, everybody is going to look at this from their own situation. Hoping for peace and growth for all moving forward. It will go to arbitration and we will have to live with the results, good and bad.
Obviously, everybody is going to look at this from their own situation. Hoping for peace and growth for all moving forward. It will go to arbitration and we will have to live with the results, good and bad.
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