Better question, why do you want this? I believe it has something to do with pay rates on the 747.

 

Is this a really difficult concept or something? You're number 3 in the tag team of CAL pilots who appear disturbed by my posts. The one who SHOULD be disturbed is ewrbasedpilot, but I guess he's gone mute. Anyway, since you asked (and I don't have a back bench to help deflect lines of conversation) I'll answer.

I want this because I firmly believe that we are passing up a unique opportunity to set our pay structure in a way the benefits ALL pilots. I really don't give a crap HOW we are paid - I only care that our compensation is structured with the goal of maximizing OUR benefits throughout the future changes in materials and technology. By focusing on the SLI (potential) impacts of our contractual pay structure we are not seeing past the tip of our nose. THAT is my primary reason.

The secondary reason is that by refusing to sign such an agreement, your leadership is shouting loudly and clearly that they are my enemy.Your leadership acknowledges that they are using the JCBA as a tool to further your position in the SLI. If that's what they want to do, then I'll treat them as such. My standing direction to my council officers is to regard the CAL leadership as adversaries until they prove otherwise. Given the actions of your MC and MEC, combined with their refusal to sign the MFR, it is very clear that they are currently the biggest threat to my career -- IMO moreso than UCH right now.

I want a fair integration. I want an industry leading CBA that for once has mechanisms built in to protect us against industry trends instead of being victims of those trends. If banding payscales is the way to do that, then someone should make that case.

 

I think your logic is flawed here - The fact that boxer and Axl are trying to make is, Tilton put the UAL fleet and (therefore) pilots into a temporary state of undersize in order to make the company look smaller to merger potentials, creditors, and the DOJ, with the express notion of making the merger get approval from all parties.
The temporary/unrealistic/unsustainable fleet and pilot list snapshot in 2010 is therefore not an accurate depiction of normal career expectations of either L-UAl or its fleet size or its pilot list size. It is an anomalous point to take a snapshot, and yes the fact that basically one guy (Tilton) was tweaking things should be considered in long term career expectations.
I think most would agree with calfo's statement that most UAL pilots hope to improve their career expectations through the merger. (If only slightly).
I think the point needs to be made that most CAL pilots have the same small hope.
If that weren't true then neither MEC would have gone along with the merger.

 

Fair enough and I agree. What is it about the JCBA proposal that you speculate to be working against us? The one that I keep hearing has to do with pay banding. The assumption we are all under is that the JCBA has pay bands and that the 747 and 787 are in the same band. Is the 787 not the future of this company. Is it not to our benefit to make sure we get as much pay as possible for it?

With regards to how the JCBA will impact seniority, you may want to have a conversation with your Meger committee about the pros and cons of having such an agreement. You may find that is hurts your position more than it helps.

 

The only fact is that the size of UAL was reduced in 2008. Everything else is speculation. Even if the reduction were to make UAL more attractive for a merger, there is no evidence of any type of plan to restore the lost flying. There were no small body orders nor has a plan been announced since the merger to grow the airline. Sorry, the argument has no teeth.

 

Boxer,

Thanks for laying out that position as that is the clearest explanation I have seen regarding how relative seniority might be seen as a "bad deal" for one side. Again, since I don't spend time thinking about SLI I don't spend time thinking about the possible arguments that will be made.

I now understand that position. Thanks.

 

Since page 1 of this thread we have had major drift off the topic. I am guilty of that myself. There is a quote I saw recently that maybe we should all keep in mind:

"We must learn to live together as brothers or perish together as fools." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.

Maybe we can close out this thread on that note as we bring it back to the topic that started it all. Unfortunately, other threads will pop up that show CAL and UAL pilots disagree over the battles, but hopefully we all recognize the war is being fought with management and not each other. So, yes, let's get back on track in the spirit of the original post.

 

I prefer the original.

We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately.
Benjamin Franklin

 

Was the pension flush temporary, or was that a normal career expectation?

 

irrelevant considering it's unrelated to fleet and seat position.