April 30th released date?
04-18-2012, 07:07 PM
#121
Banned
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Position: 756 Left Side
Posts: 1,629
Originally Posted by gettinbumped
Interesting thoughts and discussions.
Just my .06, since I've already put in a couple of .02's. Friday is the fork in the road the way I see it. We are either going to move forward together, or we are going to crater this deal into a USAirways moment that we will never fully recover from.
Trying VERY hard to see this from both perspectives, and put myself in the CAL pilots shoes. One, I too would be rather uncomfortable that the "other side" puts out a call for release without the knowledge of my own MEC. Obviously none of us have all the facts. As a UAL pilot, I too would rather have had your MC and MEC on board when this decision was reached. At this point, my frustration is SO GREAT with the stalling tactics of the "company" that we work for that I'm just excited to get some ACTION. In my opinion, and my opinion only, we've been enduring for FAR too long once a week meetings, discussions on work rules, large groups, small groups, retrenching back to 2010 positions by the company, broken promises, Jr managers showing up instead of promised Sr managers, NOBODY showing up even though they are on their home turf, etc. etc. etc.
When the company wants something from us, it takes a couple of weeks to re-write the whole contract. We could have the entire thing done by April 30th if they wanted to, so I simply bristle at any/every suggestion by ANYBODY that things are progressing well. I'm firmly of the belief that they are toying with us, and will continue to do so until forced to actually negotiate.
So where does this leave us? Jay Heppner puts out his Blastmail calling for release. I don't know Capt. Heppner personally, but I do know that he is uniquely positioned now as the most informed pilot at either property having been the head of the Negotiating Committee and now the MC. He is intimately familiar with the mediator and probably has the clearest idea of their thinking of anyone on the combined MEC. My GUESS is that he has a very good reason for calling for this action NOW.
I'm trying to consider what I would want if the shoe were on the other foot and it was the CAL MEC/MC who put out the word for word blast mail that we all received. After much debate, I think I would feel the same way that I feel now, which is GOOD. Let's GET GOING. If we don't get released, we don't get released. If we DO get released and we end up with Pres. Obama not allowing a strike, we are under the direction of the PEB, and I'm convinced that would be a GOOD thing based on AMR's situation in years past.
I can appreciate the apprehension of the CAL pilots with the announcement that was made without the apparent knowledge and support of the CAL MEC. However, I hope that we can rally behind the message as ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. It's TIME. If not now, what are we waiting for? I'm finished with excuses, I'm finished with waiting, and I'm finished with updates. The company has shown their true colors. I'm sure the company is hoping HARD that the CAL MEC will split with the request for a demand to contract end, as this would be the ultimate symbol that we are too busy fighting each other to bother fighting them. I know all the history of how we got here. I'm familiar with all the grievances, deals, TPA's, discussions etc., and to me, none of that matters anymore. It's what happens Friday that charts the path for our combined pilot group, our contract, and our future. If the shoe were on the other foot, I feel confident that I would spend tomorrow making sure that reps KNOW that I want to support the demand for a contract by June 1st or request release on April 30th. I hope my brothers and sisters at CAL will join us.
I probably could have said all that in 2 sentences, but I was on a roll.....
Just my .06, since I've already put in a couple of .02's. Friday is the fork in the road the way I see it. We are either going to move forward together, or we are going to crater this deal into a USAirways moment that we will never fully recover from.
Trying VERY hard to see this from both perspectives, and put myself in the CAL pilots shoes. One, I too would be rather uncomfortable that the "other side" puts out a call for release without the knowledge of my own MEC. Obviously none of us have all the facts. As a UAL pilot, I too would rather have had your MC and MEC on board when this decision was reached. At this point, my frustration is SO GREAT with the stalling tactics of the "company" that we work for that I'm just excited to get some ACTION. In my opinion, and my opinion only, we've been enduring for FAR too long once a week meetings, discussions on work rules, large groups, small groups, retrenching back to 2010 positions by the company, broken promises, Jr managers showing up instead of promised Sr managers, NOBODY showing up even though they are on their home turf, etc. etc. etc.
When the company wants something from us, it takes a couple of weeks to re-write the whole contract. We could have the entire thing done by April 30th if they wanted to, so I simply bristle at any/every suggestion by ANYBODY that things are progressing well. I'm firmly of the belief that they are toying with us, and will continue to do so until forced to actually negotiate.
So where does this leave us? Jay Heppner puts out his Blastmail calling for release. I don't know Capt. Heppner personally, but I do know that he is uniquely positioned now as the most informed pilot at either property having been the head of the Negotiating Committee and now the MC. He is intimately familiar with the mediator and probably has the clearest idea of their thinking of anyone on the combined MEC. My GUESS is that he has a very good reason for calling for this action NOW.
I'm trying to consider what I would want if the shoe were on the other foot and it was the CAL MEC/MC who put out the word for word blast mail that we all received. After much debate, I think I would feel the same way that I feel now, which is GOOD. Let's GET GOING. If we don't get released, we don't get released. If we DO get released and we end up with Pres. Obama not allowing a strike, we are under the direction of the PEB, and I'm convinced that would be a GOOD thing based on AMR's situation in years past.
I can appreciate the apprehension of the CAL pilots with the announcement that was made without the apparent knowledge and support of the CAL MEC. However, I hope that we can rally behind the message as ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. It's TIME. If not now, what are we waiting for? I'm finished with excuses, I'm finished with waiting, and I'm finished with updates. The company has shown their true colors. I'm sure the company is hoping HARD that the CAL MEC will split with the request for a demand to contract end, as this would be the ultimate symbol that we are too busy fighting each other to bother fighting them. I know all the history of how we got here. I'm familiar with all the grievances, deals, TPA's, discussions etc., and to me, none of that matters anymore. It's what happens Friday that charts the path for our combined pilot group, our contract, and our future. If the shoe were on the other foot, I feel confident that I would spend tomorrow making sure that reps KNOW that I want to support the demand for a contract by June 1st or request release on April 30th. I hope my brothers and sisters at CAL will join us.
I probably could have said all that in 2 sentences, but I was on a roll.....
Interesting post and you do bring up a couple of valid points, but let me give you my take as a CAL pilot who has many UAL friends, and has always tried to see the big picture.
I am confused and fearful of you MEC Chair putting out the message he did, without doing it within the confines of a "Joint" message.
We are in Joint negotiations.. His message seems to be of one where he is asking for the release of the United pilots if his timetable isn't met.
Now, how will (or has) this go over with the NMB? Your guess is as good as mine. But, from my understanding, the NMB has not been to happy with the way the company has been playing with regards to negotiations.
We all know that the RLA ties our hands behind our backs. And therefore, we are forced to play by certain rules.
So my question is this-
Asking for "release" is a big step that is usually taken when we are at an impasse. Are we at an impasse?
If we are at an impasse, was there an MEC Meeting (on your side) where your LEC's directed your MEC chair to pull this trigger? And if so, and your LEC's felt so strongly, were those feelings conveyed to the CAL MEC? Also, is this the feeling of your NC?
I just do not see where one group asking for release of their side, by a certain date.. without the support or even knowledge of the message, by the other side- is going to help.
My .02 cents is this.
The NMB is not going to release one side. And I wouldn't be surprised if the NMB actually looks poorly on the JNC for this move.
On top of this, what would you think if you were the company?
-That the two MEC can't work together and we can use this to low ball...
Now, if the CAL MEC agrees to support this, the next thing you will hear from the CAL Pilots is an uprising as to what is really going on?! And why JP and the entire MC plus other committees are doing a 180. That can have no good outcome on my side.
Mind you, even if CAL MEC supports this, if the NMB doesn't release us (which I don't think they would).. what has this gotten us?
If the CAL MEC does not support this, what does it say to the company, the NMB and also to Wall Str and the investors. That the combined UAL/CAL ALPA are a rudderless ship, fighting amongst themselves. That can have no good outcome for either side.
I wanted to support this notion of a timelimit and then a release, before I spoke with a Rep today and then attended the Fam Aware dinner earlier this evening. Now, not so much because of the reasons I stated above.
Also, if JH did this to stick it to JP.. no one wins.
My last question is this-
Did JH make this ultimatum with the support of your entire MEC and ALPA National, or is this being done as a solo crusade to keep certain parts of your MEC happy? I've heard that at least one of your counsels has put out a resolution against ALPA.. if true, does this have anything to do with it?
Thanks for taking the time to read. Guess we'll know more by Friday night~
Motch
04-18-2012, 07:22 PM
#122
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2011
Posts: 467
Motch,
That is what I was thinking but I didn't want to come out and say it. But, since you said it.....lets dive into it.
I think the UAL MEC Chair has already let the cat out of the bag. He can only speak for his MEC and for his pilots. He can't (By ALPA policy and CBL) speak for the CAL pilots.
If he is asking for release, then what he is really asking for is a severance of the JCBA protocol and to proceed alone for a relase for the UAL pilots and on behalf of the UAL pilots.
He sort of threw the CAL pilots under the bus.
If he is a former NC Chair, then he is no rookie. This was not a mistake, but a pre-planned pin-point message release aimed at severing the currnet JCBA plan and taking the UAL pilots wherever it is they wish to go. Not sure if he is leading the MEC, or if their MEC is calling the shots.
This might be a one-hit-wonder. Like that do-wop song by those two twins from the west coast. Maybe he's lip-syncing like Milli-Vanilli. Whatever it is....It ain't by accident.
That is what I was thinking but I didn't want to come out and say it. But, since you said it.....lets dive into it.
I think the UAL MEC Chair has already let the cat out of the bag. He can only speak for his MEC and for his pilots. He can't (By ALPA policy and CBL) speak for the CAL pilots.
If he is asking for release, then what he is really asking for is a severance of the JCBA protocol and to proceed alone for a relase for the UAL pilots and on behalf of the UAL pilots.
He sort of threw the CAL pilots under the bus.
If he is a former NC Chair, then he is no rookie. This was not a mistake, but a pre-planned pin-point message release aimed at severing the currnet JCBA plan and taking the UAL pilots wherever it is they wish to go. Not sure if he is leading the MEC, or if their MEC is calling the shots.
This might be a one-hit-wonder. Like that do-wop song by those two twins from the west coast. Maybe he's lip-syncing like Milli-Vanilli. Whatever it is....It ain't by accident.
04-18-2012, 07:37 PM
#123
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2011
Posts: 467
Originally Posted by Regularguy
Otto...
You are so far out in left field a ball could land in front of you and it would be a home run. Your posts reek of inexperience and fear and quite frankly if we go separate ways I guarantee you the game is over, there will be no merged seniority and the UCH will continue their growth of contract pilot work.
Now to answer your points:
1. "UAL MEC is ape-bonkers over CAL pilots getting the profit sharing we deserve? "
A. - They did not go "ape" over your PS deal. They filed a grievance because UCH distributed the PS to the UAL pilots in violation of the CBA which is in force. Fair or not the CAL pilots got PS in a deal outside of your CBA.
2. "The UAL MEC screwed this joint thing up pretty bad."
A. UAL and now UCH management screwed this place up. UAL pilots took major hits in retirement, pay, vacation, work rules and such to save this airline from liquidation over 10 years ago. Now Jeff says UAL pilots do not deserve a return for their investment and continually claims it would be unfair to the other employees.
3. "They look like clowns. It looks like lone wolf MEC over there. So much for joint anything."
A. The UAL MEC has continually, since the beginning of the merger, worked diligently with the CAL MEC. They have kept them informed and called for joint meetings and solidarity. Conversely the CAL MEC (EWR leading) turned the initial battle into positioning for ISL and has continued to walk out on and stone wall the UAL MEC. Additionally Jay Pierce is well know on the inside as being untrusted with any private direction. It seems the UCH management has always been informed of all joint MEC Chair discussions before the MEC members themselves.
Otto the short run is only toast if your MEC Chair chooses it to be! As I said in a previous post, if people like you decide to go separate ways and hurt a UAL pilot action rather than join in you are no brethren of ours.
Fly your plane, enjoy your seniority.
You are so far out in left field a ball could land in front of you and it would be a home run. Your posts reek of inexperience and fear and quite frankly if we go separate ways I guarantee you the game is over, there will be no merged seniority and the UCH will continue their growth of contract pilot work.
Now to answer your points:
1. "UAL MEC is ape-bonkers over CAL pilots getting the profit sharing we deserve? "
A. - They did not go "ape" over your PS deal. They filed a grievance because UCH distributed the PS to the UAL pilots in violation of the CBA which is in force. Fair or not the CAL pilots got PS in a deal outside of your CBA.
2. "The UAL MEC screwed this joint thing up pretty bad."
A. UAL and now UCH management screwed this place up. UAL pilots took major hits in retirement, pay, vacation, work rules and such to save this airline from liquidation over 10 years ago. Now Jeff says UAL pilots do not deserve a return for their investment and continually claims it would be unfair to the other employees.
3. "They look like clowns. It looks like lone wolf MEC over there. So much for joint anything."
A. The UAL MEC has continually, since the beginning of the merger, worked diligently with the CAL MEC. They have kept them informed and called for joint meetings and solidarity. Conversely the CAL MEC (EWR leading) turned the initial battle into positioning for ISL and has continued to walk out on and stone wall the UAL MEC. Additionally Jay Pierce is well know on the inside as being untrusted with any private direction. It seems the UCH management has always been informed of all joint MEC Chair discussions before the MEC members themselves.
Otto the short run is only toast if your MEC Chair chooses it to be! As I said in a previous post, if people like you decide to go separate ways and hurt a UAL pilot action rather than join in you are no brethren of ours.
Fly your plane, enjoy your seniority.
If jay was so "untrusted" then why is it that he holds the longest tenure of any Chairman at the CAL pilot group, be it IACP, or ALPA? I think he may even hold the longest tenure of any ALPA MEC Chair anywhere. Jay has made some enemies along the way I take, but he is still the MEC Chair and I would wager he will be for the next 2 years.
Who cares what you lost or what you gave up.........It's me me me me this bla bla bla
No kidding.........We all lost. The problem is that the UAL MEC has done nothing to move the ball forward in a productive way. I simply can't think of anything......Oh wait... they wrote a letter to Congress.
CAL Pilots are free to negotiate side letters outside of our CBA. That is standard in labor contracts. To pretend otherwise is total naivity on your part. The CAL CBA has over 30 side letters and every year we get more. Why not go out and greive the other ones we have too, or are those side letters okay with you??
Jeff says what Jeff says. Go attack him, not the CAL pilots. We work hard and we deserve what we negotiate. I don't care what Jeff says. If you listen to his junk that is your fault for doing that and getting sucked into it. Take an add in the Wall Street Journal or the USA today and go after Jeffie, but leave the CAL pilots alone.
You are wrong about your assertion that Jay communicates off the books with management. You simply aren't close enough to the players to know where the chairs are or who sits in them. There are 2 conspiracy thorists who assert this. One is a former rep from EWR who has a personal grudge and the other is a wacko that is on Pluto every time he hits the send button. Both have been very severely discredited.
04-18-2012, 08:15 PM
#124
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2012
Position: 767 F/O
Posts: 303
Originally Posted by Ottolillienthal
You are wrong on all counts.
If jay was so "untrusted" then why is it that he holds the longest tenure of any Chairman at the CAL pilot group, be it IACP, or ALPA? I think he may even hold the longest tenure of any ALPA MEC Chair anywhere. Jay has made some enemies along the way I take, but he is still the MEC Chair and I would wager he will be for the next 2 years.
Who cares what you lost or what you gave up.........It's me me me me this bla bla bla
No kidding.........We all lost. The problem is that the UAL MEC has done nothing to move the ball forward in a productive way. I simply can't think of anything......Oh wait... they wrote a letter to Congress.
CAL Pilots are free to negotiate side letters outside of our CBA. That is standard in labor contracts. To pretend otherwise is total naivity on your part. The CAL CBA has over 30 side letters and every year we get more. Why not go out and greive the other ones we have too, or are those side letters okay with you??
Jeff says what Jeff says. Go attack him, not the CAL pilots. We work hard and we deserve what we negotiate. I don't care what Jeff says. If you listen to his junk that is your fault for doing that and getting sucked into it. Take an add in the Wall Street Journal or the USA today and go after Jeffie, but leave the CAL pilots alone.
You are wrong about your assertion that Jay communicates off the books with management. You simply aren't close enough to the players to know where the chairs are or who sits in them. There are 2 conspiracy thorists who assert this. One is a former rep from EWR who has a personal grudge and the other is a wacko that is on Pluto every time he hits the send button. Both have been very severely discredited.
If jay was so "untrusted" then why is it that he holds the longest tenure of any Chairman at the CAL pilot group, be it IACP, or ALPA? I think he may even hold the longest tenure of any ALPA MEC Chair anywhere. Jay has made some enemies along the way I take, but he is still the MEC Chair and I would wager he will be for the next 2 years.
Who cares what you lost or what you gave up.........It's me me me me this bla bla bla
No kidding.........We all lost. The problem is that the UAL MEC has done nothing to move the ball forward in a productive way. I simply can't think of anything......Oh wait... they wrote a letter to Congress.
CAL Pilots are free to negotiate side letters outside of our CBA. That is standard in labor contracts. To pretend otherwise is total naivity on your part. The CAL CBA has over 30 side letters and every year we get more. Why not go out and greive the other ones we have too, or are those side letters okay with you??
Jeff says what Jeff says. Go attack him, not the CAL pilots. We work hard and we deserve what we negotiate. I don't care what Jeff says. If you listen to his junk that is your fault for doing that and getting sucked into it. Take an add in the Wall Street Journal or the USA today and go after Jeffie, but leave the CAL pilots alone.
You are wrong about your assertion that Jay communicates off the books with management. You simply aren't close enough to the players to know where the chairs are or who sits in them. There are 2 conspiracy thorists who assert this. One is a former rep from EWR who has a personal grudge and the other is a wacko that is on Pluto every time he hits the send button. Both have been very severely discredited.
04-18-2012, 08:18 PM
#125
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2011
Position: A Nobody
Posts: 1,559
Otto:
I've been here over three decades and know many of the players on the UAL MEC personally. Again I will say this about many of yours and others posts here, the smell of fear and personal gain (or loss).
Continue to misquote, speculate without any knowledge of the facts and hurt the process of negotiation if you must. But the simple fact is, and you can deny it as much as you want, the time is here to get off the pot. Either you are in this for United pilots or your not. So far from all you write all I can only make the conclusion your not.
Whether you like it or not JP has publicly said, "I'm in this for the CAL pilots." So it can't be any clearly than that, he is not doing his best to advance a JCBA.
My challenge for you is simple this are you in for us all? If you are then quit the two contract garbage and demand your reps to support the release and Heppner's guidance for all of us.
Fear will destroy and knows no boundaries.
I've been here over three decades and know many of the players on the UAL MEC personally. Again I will say this about many of yours and others posts here, the smell of fear and personal gain (or loss).
Continue to misquote, speculate without any knowledge of the facts and hurt the process of negotiation if you must. But the simple fact is, and you can deny it as much as you want, the time is here to get off the pot. Either you are in this for United pilots or your not. So far from all you write all I can only make the conclusion your not.
Whether you like it or not JP has publicly said, "I'm in this for the CAL pilots." So it can't be any clearly than that, he is not doing his best to advance a JCBA.
My challenge for you is simple this are you in for us all? If you are then quit the two contract garbage and demand your reps to support the release and Heppner's guidance for all of us.
Fear will destroy and knows no boundaries.
04-18-2012, 08:27 PM
#126
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2011
Position: A Nobody
Posts: 1,559
Otto:
Just to get the facts straight for the umpteenth time, THE UAL MEC IS NOT GRIEVING YOUR SIDE LETTERS!
The Grievance is about UCH management not paying the UAL pilots according to the UAL pilot CBA formula for PS. The CBA gives specific directions and formulas about how to compute the PS and the UCH management chose to ignore it. Additionally they are grieving that UCH management broke the "status quo." by negotiating a substantial side agreement under the guise of grievance reward. NO ONE I KNOW FEELS YOU SHOULDN'T ENJOY YOUR FINANCIAL WINDFALL!
Please get your facts straight before you embarrass your self more.
So again join us or get out of the way.
Just to get the facts straight for the umpteenth time, THE UAL MEC IS NOT GRIEVING YOUR SIDE LETTERS!
The Grievance is about UCH management not paying the UAL pilots according to the UAL pilot CBA formula for PS. The CBA gives specific directions and formulas about how to compute the PS and the UCH management chose to ignore it. Additionally they are grieving that UCH management broke the "status quo." by negotiating a substantial side agreement under the guise of grievance reward. NO ONE I KNOW FEELS YOU SHOULDN'T ENJOY YOUR FINANCIAL WINDFALL!
Please get your facts straight before you embarrass your self more.
So again join us or get out of the way.
04-18-2012, 09:09 PM
#127
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2012
Position: B777 CA - SFO
Posts: 728
RG,
The UA MEC does have a grievance against the CAL MEC as a party to the status quo violation question, and ALPA attorney Rusty Allman is representing CALALPA.
The rest of your post is spot on.
The UA MEC does have a grievance against the CAL MEC as a party to the status quo violation question, and ALPA attorney Rusty Allman is representing CALALPA.
The rest of your post is spot on.
04-19-2012, 01:16 AM
#128
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2010
Position: 787 CA
Posts: 423
I, for one, would love to be released. Don't think it's even remotely likely, but all the same I'd still like to try. So why did this have to be made complicated by Heppner going it alone? I think initially, it would have been recieved well at the MEC, but CAL is under no obligation whatsoever to blindly follow Heppner's lead. In fact, he's handed a pretty good excuse to anyone on the CAL MEC not inclined to request release to vote no. All the whining I've heard here about Pierce "going it alone" in the past and suddenly it's quite OK for Heppner to do exactly that and we're supposed to just tag along. I understand the MEC's have agreed to operate somewhat independantly (mutually exclusive is probably more accurate), but if Heppner cared at all for the CAL MEC's support for something of this importance he might of at least given them a heads up. Maybe he just doesn't care, which is fine as long we're not condemned for having our own opinions on the matter. Esssentially, I'm hoping we request release as well but I'm not necessarily expecting it from the CAL MEC just because the UAL MEC Chairman made that decision on his own.
04-19-2012, 03:37 AM
#130
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2011
Posts: 467
Originally Posted by Regularguy
Otto:
I've been here over three decades and know many of the players on the UAL MEC personally. Again I will say this about many of yours and others posts here, the smell of fear and personal gain (or loss).
Continue to misquote, speculate without any knowledge of the facts and hurt the process of negotiation if you must. But the simple fact is, and you can deny it as much as you want, the time is here to get off the pot. Either you are in this for United pilots or your not. So far from all you write all I can only make the conclusion your not.
Whether you like it or not JP has publicly said, "I'm in this for the CAL pilots." So it can't be any clearly than that, he is not doing his best to advance a JCBA.
My challenge for you is simple this are you in for us all? If you are then quit the two contract garbage and demand your reps to support the release and Heppner's guidance for all of us.
Fear will destroy and knows no boundaries.
I've been here over three decades and know many of the players on the UAL MEC personally. Again I will say this about many of yours and others posts here, the smell of fear and personal gain (or loss).
Continue to misquote, speculate without any knowledge of the facts and hurt the process of negotiation if you must. But the simple fact is, and you can deny it as much as you want, the time is here to get off the pot. Either you are in this for United pilots or your not. So far from all you write all I can only make the conclusion your not.
Whether you like it or not JP has publicly said, "I'm in this for the CAL pilots." So it can't be any clearly than that, he is not doing his best to advance a JCBA.
My challenge for you is simple this are you in for us all? If you are then quit the two contract garbage and demand your reps to support the release and Heppner's guidance for all of us.
Fear will destroy and knows no boundaries.
I am in this for the long haul. The long term gains and benefits outweigh anything else.
However........This is like a bad relationship right now. Like a bad girlfriend. It's not about who is right or who is wrong. both MEC's have screwed up. CAL MEC had the red headed crazy woman. UAL MEC has made some bad decisions, etc.
Here is where we are today.....We can't change that no matter how you sugar coat it.
JH launched the atomic bomb and threw the CAL pilots under the bus. He is not OUR master chairman. He took this course of action by himself.
What are we to think of it??
In the short run, it is best for both pilot groups to get themselves a deal that reaches relative pairity so they can later come back together less "jealous" and "envious" of each other. You could even put in a provision that mandates a time-line and a provision of no outside side letters until a JCBA is reached.
Think of the positives here in the long run.....
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