Originally Posted by Poppy

You miss the point completely. We are not talking about chump change here. I know FOs at CAL who have made just under 200K for the past 10 years, I know Captains at CAL who have made over 250 for the past several years. All the while your A320 guys were taking it in the shorts. The rest of your pilots, while not as bad, were taking it in the shorts also. I still ask, how do you pay for your child's college with all the stuff that you United guys seem to hold so dear.

BTW,I like all the work rules as much as the next man, but I just can't make a bank deposit with that stuff. No matter how you slice the pie, if the company prices a particular work rule out at $10.00 per flight hour, that is $10/hour less that I make.

By the time that all the work rules kick in, I will have taken a pay cut under this new UPA. Even with the raise next January, it will still be a pay cut. My QOL will be better, but nevertheless, my pay will be less. Not whining by the way, just stating fact. And this illustrates one of the vast cultural differences, we went for the money, and you went for the work rules.

Originally Posted by Night Hawk 6

So it is quality of life or a large W-2, really? If your only concern is your W-2 then I guess you will also stretch those pesky safety rules also as we all know how important it is to carry that write up so as not to screw up your sequence. Work rules pertain to safety. Quality of life is a result of these safety rules. The reason we have a rest seat is to provide a place for a pilot to rest so he is alert and fully ready to perform his required duties upon return to the flight deck. Having to endure a seat mate who is ill, talkative or on any way disruptive of your rest break is a safety issue. A few years ago we had a captain that regularly reminded us of how large his retirement was going to be and how he went out of his way to maximize his w-2. Just before his 60Th birthday he was diagnosed with cancer but with all his unused sick time he was still able to maximize his pay while he recovered. We flew together not long after he returned to work and he told me that his wife was retiring from her 33 year career as an educator and that she was looking forward to not returning to work in the fall. When I asked him why he did not join her and enjoy life he responded "Do you know how much money I would leave on the table." Within six months of our conversation his cancer returned and he was dead. Now that's quality of life for the w-2 chasers. ( ORD 767I AA Captain, about 4 years ago.)

Originally Posted by Poppy

1. Just because I, and the much of rest of the CAL pilot group, chose to maximize W2 does not make us unsafe. I do admit that giving up the rest seat was a stupid idea. On the other hand, I guarantee that I could cherry pick the old U contract, and find stupid stuff. As yet, no one has told me how to make a deposit at the bank with work rules!

2. You assume that ALL work rules are safety related, and that is just not true.

3. We can all find an anecdotal example(s) of why one thing or another is great or sucks. Sorry your friend got cancer, but only a broad examination of the evidence would even provide a clue.

Further, I didn't try to state that U was wrong in their approach, only that it was different from Cal. And therein lies the point, I was simply trying illustrate what I perceive as a vast cultural difference, and you chose to bash the CAL side, and wrap the U side in the flag of safety.

Everyone has to get over the "my team/heritage/lineage/uniform/training/younameit is better than yours" schoolyard taunts because we are all on the same team now.

Originally Posted by Poppy

1. Just because I, and the much of rest of the CAL pilot group, chose to maximize W2 does not make us unsafe. I do admit that giving up the rest seat was a stupid idea. On the other hand, I guarantee that I could cherry pick the old U contract, and find stupid stuff. As yet, no one has told me how to make a deposit at the bank with work rules!

2. You assume that ALL work rules are safety related, and that is just not true.

3. We can all find an anecdotal example(s) of why one thing or another is great or sucks. Sorry your friend got cancer, but only a broad examination of the evidence would even provide a clue.

Further, I didn't try to state that U was wrong in their approach, only that it was different from Cal. And therein lies the point, I was simply trying illustrate what I perceive as a vast cultural difference, and you chose to bash the CAL side, and wrap the U side in the flag of safety.

Everyone has to get over the "my team/heritage/lineage/uniform/training/younameit is better than yours" schoolyard taunts because we are all on the same team now.

Originally Posted by Poppy

If we are going to talk about B737 window washers on the L-Cal side, do we get to talk about the brain surgeons on the L-Ual side?

Originally Posted by Sunvox

3 stories that highlight for me the unbelievable gap in pilot and company mentality between L-UAL and L-CAL


Story 1)

L-CAL gate agent comes into the cockpit in EWR on a 767 bound for Europe and says

CSR: "Captain, just so you know, we upgraded an angry premium customer to first class and used the crew rest seat."

UAL Captain: "Well, just so you know this plane isn't moving, until we have our rest seat open."

CSR: "You're serious?"

UAL Captain: "Yes."




CSR then went crying to his boss, but ultimately the passenger was moved, and 3 days later when they returned EWR Chief Pilot said to the Captain (and this is paraphrased):

Chief P: "At Continental we take care of our customers and that's not the way we do things."

L-UAL-Captain: "At United we follow the rules."




Story 2:

This one I was personally involved in. I overheard a L-CAL captain talking on the phone in ops in IAD. The issue was whether or not they needed a 3rd pilot to go IAD to Manchester, England since they had a 3rd pilot for the return leg. Now I may have my facts wrong here and if so I hope some CAL pilots will correct me, but it is my understanding that Section 5-I-6 should now be fully implemented. The L-CAL captain was told by the crew desk that the id had been constructed in February before the rules were in effect so it was legal. The CAL crew flew with only 2 pilots in direct violation of 5-I-6 because the crew desk said it was ok. At a minimum most UAL pilots would have gotten an order to fly, and more likely the majority of L-UAL pilots would have refused the trip until a 3rd pilot was added.


Story 3

The EWR Chief pilot has sent out an email that says in effect "I don't want my pilots to get in the middle of a contract dispute, and this is a blanket order to fly even if you believe the 757 rest seat should have an open seat next to it.


The contract says:




and, the EWR Chief pilot says this means the the adjacent seat shall be the last assigned seat in business-first only.

I agree there are details that need clarification regarding coach passengers not showing up, but if there are 30 unassigned seats in coach and business-first fills up that clearly does not give the company a right to fill the seat next to the rest seat, and I hope to heck CAL pilots are not flying with this situation.



Anyways, I just find the difference in culture to be surprising.

Originally Posted by Sunvox

And how 'bout

- a real day of classroom training and pay for Sabre instead of online nonsense.

Originally Posted by Jim Lively

You should have this procedure down COLD. You shouldn't be in a cockpit if you can't remember how it's done.

Originally Posted by EWRflyr

Only if we can agree on the color of the scrubs for the uniforms.

Originally Posted by Poppy

Easy, go with the proven professional color, BLACK