Important to keep in mind
04-25-2013, 05:27 PM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2010
Position: 737 Cap
Posts: 451
Originally Posted by SoCalGuy
Just want to get this straight.....
It's not a Negotiation, but apparently there's a "Negotiating Committee"???
Well my good-man "James", does 1-1/2 make quorum??
It's not a Negotiation, but apparently there's a "Negotiating Committee"???
Well my good-man "James", does 1-1/2 make quorum??
Scott
04-25-2013, 05:28 PM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2010
Position: EWR 777 Captain
Posts: 1,715
Today is Sunday, October 3, 2010, and we have four items for your review.
Item 1: Continental is an Industry Leader
We would like to start this week’s Magenta Line with a reminder to all of what Continental Airlines brings to the table in this merger. We hear persistent rumors that there are those who have not kept up with history, who continue to think of Continental as primarily a 737 “feeder” type of airline, rather than the global industry leader. The following is a dose of reality:
Our New York/Newark hub serves the second largest number of nonstop destinations of any U.S. Hub, right behind DAL's ATL hub, which is the world's largest. The latest figures from ALPA E&FA showed our EWR hub with 141 nonstop destinations, while the leading UAL hub at ORD only serves 90. Additionally, our EWR domicile, along with our IAH domicile, will continue to be the largest two domiciles in the combined system after the merger is complete.
Continental continues to board more NYC total passengers (EWR, JFK, LGA combined) than any other airline. DAL is second, JBLU is third, and AA is fourth. Even our primary Express carrier, Continental Express, is #5 in total NYC traffic. Continental is also of course the leader in NYC international passengers. UAL is nowhere to be found among the leaders. As measured by both nonstop destinations and total passengers boarded, Continental remains the leader in the largest, most important, and most lucrative air travel market in North America.
We bring a new fleet to the merger, with clean, fuel efficient aircraft. There is a very practical reason why our livery was chosen for the merged carrier – we brought most of the new, clean, fuel efficient aircraft to the party. Not only is the average age of our fleet much younger than most of the rest of the industry's, but our aircraft also tend to have much larger powerplants, higher gross weights and greater range, particularly our 757's and 777's. For example, United's low gross weight 757's and 777's, with their small Pratt and Whitney engines, cannot generate nearly as much revenue as ours do. We fly 757's all across higher yield markets such as Ireland, the UK, and northern and western Europe, from NEW YORK. We fly 777's mostly on long haul and ultra long haul flights to Delhi, Mumbai, Tel Aviv, Tokyo, Shanghai, Beijing, Hong Kong, etc, from NEW YORK.
Finally, a recent USAToday article showed four different ratings of airline quality. Continental was the # 1 global “legacy” airline in all four airline quality ratings.
Continental has remained an industry leader - by any measure - for the past decade. We should all be proud to be Continental pilots. Let us hope that the new United can rise to Continental's level via this merger.
Item 1: Continental is an Industry Leader
We would like to start this week’s Magenta Line with a reminder to all of what Continental Airlines brings to the table in this merger. We hear persistent rumors that there are those who have not kept up with history, who continue to think of Continental as primarily a 737 “feeder” type of airline, rather than the global industry leader. The following is a dose of reality:
Our New York/Newark hub serves the second largest number of nonstop destinations of any U.S. Hub, right behind DAL's ATL hub, which is the world's largest. The latest figures from ALPA E&FA showed our EWR hub with 141 nonstop destinations, while the leading UAL hub at ORD only serves 90. Additionally, our EWR domicile, along with our IAH domicile, will continue to be the largest two domiciles in the combined system after the merger is complete.
Continental continues to board more NYC total passengers (EWR, JFK, LGA combined) than any other airline. DAL is second, JBLU is third, and AA is fourth. Even our primary Express carrier, Continental Express, is #5 in total NYC traffic. Continental is also of course the leader in NYC international passengers. UAL is nowhere to be found among the leaders. As measured by both nonstop destinations and total passengers boarded, Continental remains the leader in the largest, most important, and most lucrative air travel market in North America.
We bring a new fleet to the merger, with clean, fuel efficient aircraft. There is a very practical reason why our livery was chosen for the merged carrier – we brought most of the new, clean, fuel efficient aircraft to the party. Not only is the average age of our fleet much younger than most of the rest of the industry's, but our aircraft also tend to have much larger powerplants, higher gross weights and greater range, particularly our 757's and 777's. For example, United's low gross weight 757's and 777's, with their small Pratt and Whitney engines, cannot generate nearly as much revenue as ours do. We fly 757's all across higher yield markets such as Ireland, the UK, and northern and western Europe, from NEW YORK. We fly 777's mostly on long haul and ultra long haul flights to Delhi, Mumbai, Tel Aviv, Tokyo, Shanghai, Beijing, Hong Kong, etc, from NEW YORK.
Finally, a recent USAToday article showed four different ratings of airline quality. Continental was the # 1 global “legacy” airline in all four airline quality ratings.
Continental has remained an industry leader - by any measure - for the past decade. We should all be proud to be Continental pilots. Let us hope that the new United can rise to Continental's level via this merger.
So, let's recap . . .
UAL pilots start out excited to be a part of a merger that gets rid of our horrible anti-labor management, and when discussions open on a JCBA as outlined by the new ALPA merger policy the first public salvo comes from CAL explaining how great their company is and how UAL has to come up to their level. First the CAL MEC forces pay banding in a blatant attempt to influence the ISL process then the CAL MEC forces payment for profit sharing which is later shown in legal decisions to be a direct violation of their CBA and the TPA, and the award to UAL pilots is pending. Next the CAL MEC delays the JCBA for 2 years and we lose tens of thousands of dollars each and when the UAL Chairman says enough and asks for a strike vote the obstructionist JP starts out with a resounding no until pressure from national forces his hand. Then the SLI discussion comes up and the CAL MEC pins it's hopes on the panel going outside ALPA policy and building a list based on the perceived career expectations and W2s whilst ignoring all previous precedent and the current rules.
After all that UAL guys get angry and ask for any sane CAL pilot to simply acknowledge that maybe just maybe it's a little "over the top", but the response of every CAL pilot on APC is we are hysterical and stuck on status and category.
Never ever ever anywhere in the early posts on this forum did I ever see a UAL pilot tell a CAL pilot to go back "to their coloring books." Never ever did I see a UAL pilot early on this forum try to tell a CAL pilot that their company was inferior. All anyone ever wanted at UAL was to follow the rules as laid out by ALPA policy. That policy favors UAL because we have more WBs and are older on average. Putting us down like somehow we as a pilot group are responsible for 9/11, SARs, and somehow you wouldn't have gone for Contract 2000 when we set the bar to the highest level ever seen for pilots is blatant back stabbing of your fellow pilot.
You know what . . . that sucks 'cuz you guys are the ones creating disharmony. I guarantee that every single UAL pilot went into this merger with the highest of hopes, and all anyone wanted was "a fair shake".
Tell me what it is you guys think is fair about the CAL proposal. Tell me what you think is fair about all the benefits accruing to the CAL side for the last 3 years while we sit with our hands out begging for a Captain bid. You have had the best of all worlds and you have the audacity to claim that we are a bunch of whining sissies.
I want more than anything to hold my head above the fray here on APC because to often I have allowed myself to be dragged down by emotion, but I am genuinely sick and tired of the CAL opinions expressed on this forum and I genuinely hope above all hope that the ISL comes down stovepiped status and category so I can come back on here and rub it in your faces, but I guess that will have to wait 'til September and there is still the chance that I could have my face rubbed in it, but boy I really doubt it . . . do you?
04-25-2013, 06:09 PM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,253
Originally Posted by Sunvox
So, let's recap . . .
UAL pilots start out excited to be a part of a merger that gets rid of our horrible anti-labor management, and when discussions open on a JCBA as outlined by the new ALPA merger policy the first public salvo comes from CAL explaining how great their company is and how UAL has to come up to their level. First the CAL MEC forces pay banding in a blatant attempt to influence the ISL process then the CAL MEC forces payment for profit sharing which is later shown in legal decisions to be a direct violation of their CBA and the TPA, and the award to UAL pilots is pending. Next the CAL MEC delays the JCBA for 2 years and we lose tens of thousands of dollars each and when the UAL Chairman says enough and asks for a strike vote the obstructionist JP starts out with a resounding no until pressure from national forces his hand. Then the SLI discussion comes up and the CAL MEC pins it's hopes on the panel going outside ALPA policy and building a list based on the perceived career expectations and W2s whilst ignoring all previous precedent and the current rules.
After all that UAL guys get angry and ask for any sane CAL pilot to simply acknowledge that maybe just maybe it's a little "over the top", but the response of every CAL pilot on APC is we are hysterical and stuck on status and category.
Never ever ever anywhere in the early posts on this forum did I ever see a UAL pilot tell a CAL pilot to go back "to their coloring books." Never ever did I see a UAL pilot early on this forum try to tell a CAL pilot that their company was inferior. All anyone ever wanted at UAL was to follow the rules as laid out by ALPA policy. That policy favors UAL because we have more WBs and are older on average. Putting us down like somehow we as a pilot group are responsible for 9/11, SARs, and somehow you wouldn't have gone for Contract 2000 when we set the bar to the highest level ever seen for pilots is blatant back stabbing of your fellow pilot.
You know what . . . that sucks 'cuz you guys are the ones creating disharmony. I guarantee that every single UAL pilot went into this merger with the highest of hopes, and all anyone wanted was "a fair shake".
Tell me what it is you guys think is fair about the CAL proposal. Tell me what you think is fair about all the benefits accruing to the CAL side for the last 3 years while we sit with our hands out begging for a Captain bid. You have had the best of all worlds and you have the audacity to claim that we are a bunch of whining sissies.
I want more than anything to hold my head above the fray here on APC because to often I have allowed myself to be dragged down by emotion, but I am genuinely sick and tired of the CAL opinions expressed on this forum and I genuinely hope above all hope that the ISL comes down stovepiped status and category so I can come back on here and rub it in your faces, but I guess that will have to wait 'til September and there is still the chance that I could have my face rubbed in it, but boy I really doubt it . . . do you?
UAL pilots start out excited to be a part of a merger that gets rid of our horrible anti-labor management, and when discussions open on a JCBA as outlined by the new ALPA merger policy the first public salvo comes from CAL explaining how great their company is and how UAL has to come up to their level. First the CAL MEC forces pay banding in a blatant attempt to influence the ISL process then the CAL MEC forces payment for profit sharing which is later shown in legal decisions to be a direct violation of their CBA and the TPA, and the award to UAL pilots is pending. Next the CAL MEC delays the JCBA for 2 years and we lose tens of thousands of dollars each and when the UAL Chairman says enough and asks for a strike vote the obstructionist JP starts out with a resounding no until pressure from national forces his hand. Then the SLI discussion comes up and the CAL MEC pins it's hopes on the panel going outside ALPA policy and building a list based on the perceived career expectations and W2s whilst ignoring all previous precedent and the current rules.
After all that UAL guys get angry and ask for any sane CAL pilot to simply acknowledge that maybe just maybe it's a little "over the top", but the response of every CAL pilot on APC is we are hysterical and stuck on status and category.
Never ever ever anywhere in the early posts on this forum did I ever see a UAL pilot tell a CAL pilot to go back "to their coloring books." Never ever did I see a UAL pilot early on this forum try to tell a CAL pilot that their company was inferior. All anyone ever wanted at UAL was to follow the rules as laid out by ALPA policy. That policy favors UAL because we have more WBs and are older on average. Putting us down like somehow we as a pilot group are responsible for 9/11, SARs, and somehow you wouldn't have gone for Contract 2000 when we set the bar to the highest level ever seen for pilots is blatant back stabbing of your fellow pilot.
You know what . . . that sucks 'cuz you guys are the ones creating disharmony. I guarantee that every single UAL pilot went into this merger with the highest of hopes, and all anyone wanted was "a fair shake".
Tell me what it is you guys think is fair about the CAL proposal. Tell me what you think is fair about all the benefits accruing to the CAL side for the last 3 years while we sit with our hands out begging for a Captain bid. You have had the best of all worlds and you have the audacity to claim that we are a bunch of whining sissies.
I want more than anything to hold my head above the fray here on APC because to often I have allowed myself to be dragged down by emotion, but I am genuinely sick and tired of the CAL opinions expressed on this forum and I genuinely hope above all hope that the ISL comes down stovepiped status and category so I can come back on here and rub it in your faces, but I guess that will have to wait 'til September and there is still the chance that I could have my face rubbed in it, but boy I really doubt it . . . do you?
04-25-2013, 06:21 PM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Position: 787 Captain
Posts: 1,512
Originally Posted by intrepidcv11
I stopped reading after the first paragraph. Seriously guys like you need to move back from this ISL or clearly your personal lives will suffer.
04-25-2013, 06:50 PM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2012
Position: 767 F/O
Posts: 303
Originally Posted by intrepidcv11
I stopped reading after the first paragraph. Seriously guys like you need to move back from this ISL or clearly your personal lives will suffer.
Once again, the fact that CAL guys can somehow rationalize this is beyond me. I certainly don't wish the same level of career destruction on them. Looking at the proposed CAL SLI, the one word that comes to mind is, "sociopath". Take everything I can at the expense of others, get an incredible windfall at the expense of others. Kinda like the people that cross a picket line, in my mind .. step on whoever to get what they have.
Not looking for sympathy, but understand why soooo many United pilots feel betrayed by their supposed CAL "brethren" that want to destroy 16 years of our sweat equity.
04-25-2013, 07:12 PM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Apr 2013
Position: Somewhere in a hollowed out hole...yet with broadband
Posts: 115
We don't have a final list....no ones been impacted. How about waiting for your side to put on their case, and then let the arbitrators decide what's fair? Isn't that the way this thing works??
04-25-2013, 07:15 PM
#17
New Hire
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Posts: 2
Originally Posted by Olecal
Seems like the UAL furloughee I'm flying with seems to be ok with it! He says he understands the art of negotiations. Wow! what a novel concept!
Dan
(well maybe your the lead Flight Attendant, I didn't think of that possibility)
04-25-2013, 07:20 PM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2012
Position: 767 F/O
Posts: 303
Originally Posted by dwaingrow
So let's see, you are the L-CAL captain asking the furloughed L-UAL F/O what he or she thinks of the L-CAL seniority proposal? What the &%$^ do you think they will say? They're stuck flying with you for the duration of the trip, it's either go off on you or say what they said to get through the flight with a clearly clueless captain.
Dan
(well maybe your the lead Flight Attendant, I didn't think of that possibility)
Dan
(well maybe your the lead Flight Attendant, I didn't think of that possibility)
I thought it , but you said it LOL.
04-25-2013, 08:55 PM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2012
Position: 767 F/O
Posts: 303
Originally Posted by Gupboy
We don't have a final list....no ones been impacted. How about waiting for your side to put on their case, and then let the arbitrators decide what's fair? Isn't that the way this thing works??
04-25-2013, 09:35 PM
#20
Peace Love Understanding
Joined APC: Nov 2012
Position: Airbus
Posts: 1,040
Originally Posted by Pilotbiffster
Fair enough .. you seem somewhat reasonable .. I'll make you a deal and a promise .. If my MEC SLI attempts to SO@@#ze you the way the CAL proposal strives to do to me and my career, I'll admit it and say its way overreaching.
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